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Old 03-23-2020, 12:48 AM
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...from the President of the United States: WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF


...I think this deserves its own thread, because the implications are pretty fucking terrifying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The President of the United States
WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF. AT THE END OF THE 15 DAY PERIOD, WE WILL MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHICH WAY WE WANT TO GO!
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...35285916782593

Posted an hour ago.

There is nobody steering the ship. I'm honestly at a loss as to what to say here. The chaos merchants like Steve Bannon and the believers in the rapture like Mike Pompeo must be rubbing their hands with glee.
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:08 AM
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He sure knows how to drive down the market. Look for more chaos ahead.
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:16 AM
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It's much worse than nobody steering the ship. We have a deranged, arrogantly ignorant captain who's determined to ram us into every iceberg in the ocean.
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:19 AM
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WTF is that even supposed to mean, "which way to go"? At the end of two weeks he'll decide whether or not to make the cure worse than the disease?

I guess if the country doesn't kiss his butt enough in the next two weeks, he'll make a decision to kill us all. Although he's pretty much been doing that anyway so how can we tell the difference?
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:23 AM
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It's like he doesn't even realise he's a near-80-year-old in bad shape
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:30 AM
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Is there an emergency measure someone can invoke that relieves the president of his duties for abandoned recklessness endangering hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives? Like Queeg in "The Caine Mutiny," that on a lesser scale? The 2016 voters are now stewing in their own soup.
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:50 AM
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WTF is that even supposed to mean, "which way to go"? At the end of two weeks he'll decide whether or not to make the cure worse than the disease?
...I think this was all prompted by this Fox News story. He's just parroting what he saw on TV because that is what he does. Fox New literally has the ability to manipulate the most powerful man in the world. Its all really fucking terrifying to be honest.
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Old 03-23-2020, 02:37 AM
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He's just parroting what he saw on TV because that is what he does.
It's not what he does--it's all he does. He doesn't have a clue--his head is completely up his ass, and the only thing he can see there is Fox News.
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Old 03-23-2020, 02:43 AM
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And what exactly is this "15 day" period he is talking about? When is the fateful Drop-Dead Day on which he will make his fateful decision?

Apparently this refers to March 16 through March 30.

Trump Says U.S. to Make a Decision on Coronavirus at End of 15-Day Plan, Reuters, March 23, 2020.

Quote:
Trump issued new guidelines on March 16 aimed at slowing the spread of the disease over 15 days.
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Old 03-23-2020, 02:57 AM
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...

Last edited by Aspidistra; 03-23-2020 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 03-23-2020, 04:54 AM
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Is there an emergency measure someone can invoke that relieves the president of his duties for abandoned recklessness endangering hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives? Like Queeg in "The Caine Mutiny," that on a lesser scale? The 2016 voters are now stewing in their own soup.
Yes, the 25th amendment to the Constitution has just such a procedure. Unfortunately, it requires the VP and the cabinet members to initiate the process and I don't see that happening unless Trump becomes physically disabled to the point where he can't even talk.

Last edited by dtilque; 03-23-2020 at 04:56 AM.
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Old 03-23-2020, 05:02 AM
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WTF is that even supposed to mean, "which way to go"? At the end of two weeks he'll decide whether or not to make the cure worse than the disease?
...

He is at heart a con man. You'll notice that just like a ponzi criminal he is always promising that something is going to happen. Soon. Believe me.
But when it comes to demonstrable acions and results... eh, soon, OK? Soon.
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Old 03-23-2020, 05:13 AM
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It's like he doesn't even realise he's a near-80-year-old in bad shape
Maybe the virus will end his presidency one way or another.
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Old 03-23-2020, 05:53 AM
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We're fucked, y'all.
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:38 AM
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WTF is that even supposed to mean, "which way to go"? At the end of two weeks he'll decide whether or not to make the cure worse than the disease?
It means that he has no idea what to do. He is just saying something to make it look like he is in charge.
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:45 AM
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It means get ready for more polarization. If you thought the country was bitterly divided already...you haven't seen shit yet.

This is going to get very, very ugly, and the republican party has been telegraphing this all along in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. They tried to jam corporate goodies in through a 'stimulus' bill, and democrats have called them on it.

Unfortunately, the real underlying problem in all of this, the thing that enables republicans to get away with their blatant corruption is that Americans - people generally - are dumb. We're too dumb for democracy. We're dumb. We're incurious. We're apathetic. But now, worst of all, we're dumb, incurious, politically apathetic - and scared shitless. Scared shitless about what happens to our finances, and our health.

And that makes "us" (them) dangerous.
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:47 AM
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...I think this was all prompted by this Fox News story. He's just parroting what he saw on TV because that is what he does. Fox New literally has the ability to manipulate the most powerful man in the world. Its all really fucking terrifying to be honest.
Fox News has the ability to manipulate the Republican base. I'm sure you've seen those interviews of people standing in line to get into Trump rallies: They get their news exclusively from Fox and say things similar to "thank goodness we have one news channel that tells it like it is and not that lame-stream media."

He knows he has to follow their lead because they are leading the voters that will keep him in power.
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:51 AM
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...just in contrast to what is happening in America: New Zealand is going into lockdown in less than 48 hours. The government planning has been meticulous and guided by the science. Communications open and transparent. A stimulus package was announced last week to help employers keep people in work and they were paying out full amounts a day after the announcement. Testing is free and who gets tested is determined not by strict criteria but by the GP based on their medical discretion: if they think you need to get tested you get the test. Treatment is free. Confirmed and suspected cases get contact traced.

I'm self employed and I had all my bookings cancel last week. Its a very scary time. But its good to know there is a safety net if I need it. The mood of the nation right now is a quiet determination to look out for each other. Its a message that has come from the top with outstanding leadership from Jacinda Ardern, its embedded in our culture, the concept of whanau, or family. New Zealand has had no deaths so far, but we are under no illusions that the worst is yet to come.

And I'm looking at whats happening in America and I'm just lost for words. I don't know what to say to you guys. monstro just said "We're fucked, y'all." And I can't really add anything to that at all. This is the worst possible case scenario. This is the culmination of decades of believing in the "cult of the individual." Of believing you can just "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." There is no leadership at the top, and those at the top are happy to see the country burn. I'm so, so sorry. So many Americans are about to die.
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:55 AM
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We're fucked, y'all.
We really are. And we can't even gather to protest.

I feel so helpless.
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:02 AM
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I think our collective response - and by 'our' I'm not just talking about the government but our society - our response to COVID-19 is the same as our response to the growing corruption and authoritarianism that I've been warning about for years. It's the same pattern of behavior. People don't want to believe that things are about to get really, really bad.

Having lived and traveled outside the United States extensively for years, I've noticed a tendency of Americans to opt for optimism over reality, and an equal tendency to desire entertainment and amusement over engaging in something that requires some academic rigor. America has many strengths, but we've neglected those strengths over the years and we've allowed our weak tendencies to creep up on us.

The early warning siren for me was our collective lack of outrage over being lied to in sending thousands of troops to their deaths in Middle Eastern deserts. We should have been furious about that, and instead the fury tended to break down along party lines, and worse, along cultural lines.

Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the corrupt billionaires who fund their propaganda machine are winning. Because even though they represent a very small minority of interest and even though many people actually want the things that Democrats and progressives have traditionally advocated for, they have found a way to manipulate scared white people into believing they're victims of some kind of imaginary genocide and convinced them to vote against their own interests - again and again and again.

I agree with monstro: we - are - fucked.
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:03 AM
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My read on this is the that the plan was "lock down for 2 weeks, hopefully cases will be decreasing, and then we'll reopen".

Insane thing #1: the 2nd wave of the Spanish flu killed more people than the first wave.

Insane thing #2: many closed institutions have done so voluntarily, and are not under Federal jurisdiction.

So what does Trump think he's going to do? I have this vision of the climax of Trading Places where a defeated Don Ameche wails "Turn those machines back on!!!"
  #22  
Old 03-23-2020, 07:06 AM
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My read on this is the that the plan was "lock down for 2 weeks, hopefully cases will be decreasing, and then we'll reopen".

Insane thing #1: the 2nd wave of the Spanish flu killed more people than the first wave.

Insane thing #2: many closed institutions have done so voluntarily, and are not under Federal jurisdiction.

So what does Trump think he's going to do? I have this vision of the climax of Trading Places where a defeated Don Ameche wails "Turn those machines back on!!!"
Re #1, it depends on what we'd refer to as the first wave. There was the initial outbreak in Kansas in June of 1918, which then stopped as troops moved on to European theaters of war.

But we typically consider September - December to be the flu season, and it was that wave that killed the overwhelming majority of victims. There was a second smaller wave in the early part of 1919.
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:14 AM
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We really are. And we can't even gather to protest.

I feel so helpless.
After watching that presser yesterday, I'm mad enough that if there was a critical mass of protestors amassing in D.C, I would drive up there and join them. I'd hafta wrap myself like a mummy in plastic bags and duct tape since I'm not trying to get the virus. But I would be there.
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:17 AM
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...the message New Zealand are getting from our leadership:

"Go home tonight and check on your neighbours, start a phone tree with your street, plan how you'll stay in touch with one another. We will get through this together, but only if we stick together so please be strong and be kind."
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:30 AM
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You Can’t Gaslight a Pandemic, Donald!
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:51 AM
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I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this.

He advocated widespread use of medication that is not yet thoroughly tested, with side effects that could well be worse than the disease, and is tweeting this?!
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Old 03-23-2020, 08:03 AM
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We're about to see how the "Suck it up, buttercup" and "Get over it, snowflake" crowd handles COVID-19. I don't expect them to take it well, but I don't expect any reflection or introspection, either. My forecast instead calls for right winger nutters to advocate for more projection, racism, and calls to put liberal commies in jail - or worse.
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Old 03-23-2020, 08:10 AM
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IF we had competent leadership something like that statement could be acceptable. Public health actions SHOULD be adjusted based on changing information. Ramp up or down in response to quality data assuming you have it and qualified experts are analyzing it and advising on the nationally coordinated adjustments.

Unfortunately that is not what we have.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:55 AM
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You can dislike the messenger all you want, and you can reasonably disagree on what the implications of such an approach would be, but it's hard to objectively argue against the message itself. Something about a house and a mouse, I once heard...
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:59 AM
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"Everyone dies" is a lot worse that "the made-up way we trade goods and services isn't functioning as well as we'd like", IMO. YMMV.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post

There is no leadership at the top, and those at the top are happy to see the country burn.
OTOH, especially here in Illinois, I have been pleasantly surprised by the actions of our recently elected Governor and the Mayor of Chicago. As my brother-in-law put it during a Facetime chat this weekend, we may have a decentralized government, but right now I am glad that the President isn't the boss of the state governors.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:08 AM
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You can dislike the messenger all you want, and you can reasonably disagree on what the implications of such an approach would be, but it's hard to objectively argue against the message itself.
No, it's really not.

It's hard to argue against the abstraction... naturally, cures shouldn't do more harm than diseases.

Speaking objectively and concretely, Trump is arguing that the problem itself (millions of people getting infected and dying) cannot be worse than the cure (a stock market that makes Trump look bad).

Only a sociopath like Trump or his supporters would find this confusing in any way, shape, or form.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
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There is no leadership at the top, and those at the top are happy to see the country burn.
OTOH, especially here in Illinois, I have been pleasantly surprised by the actions of our recently elected Governor and the Mayor of Chicago. As my brother-in-law put it during a Facetime chat this weekend, we may have a decentralized government, but right now I am glad that the President isn't the boss of the state governors.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:20 AM
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There is no leadership at the top, and those at the top are happy to see the country burn.
OTOH, especially here in Illinois, I have been pleasantly surprised by the actions of our recently elected Governor and the Mayor of Chicago. As my brother-in-law put it during a Facetime chat this weekend, we may have a decentralized government, but right now I am glad that the President isn't the boss of the state governors.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:44 AM
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I guess for trump, losing money is worse than death.
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Old 03-23-2020, 11:01 AM
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I guess for trump, losing money is worse than death.
For someone who has declared bankruptcy 4 times you'd think he'd be used to it by now.
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Old 03-23-2020, 11:02 AM
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There is nobody steering the ship.
And that's the thing. By tomorrow, Trump will say something totally different. Then on Thursday or Friday he will deny saying either thing.

It's impossible to discern what the American plan is. Even granting that every country is thinking on its feet to some extent, there is a lot of value in reassuring the public by NOT appearing like an insane moron.
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Last edited by RickJay; 03-23-2020 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 03-23-2020, 11:02 AM
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Speaking objectively and concretely, Trump is arguing that the problem itself (millions of people getting infected and dying) cannot be worse than the cure (a stock market that makes Trump look bad).
That's what you think it means, a bad stock market? Gosh, what a narrow (and telling) perspective.
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Old 03-23-2020, 11:05 AM
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Thankfully the State Governors are providing leadership.

My Arkansas governor has closed schools, dine in restaurants, and other measures. Other states are doing similar actions.

I don't think that will change because of a statement from the President. It certainly won't be helpful if he encourages an end to isolation.

Ultimately the state government has to ensure the safety of their people. The chaos of hospitals overrun by Coronavirus patients is felt locally.

Last edited by aceplace57; 03-23-2020 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 03-23-2020, 11:07 AM
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Since the main purpose of this thread seems to be to express outrage, it's more appropriate to the Pit.

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Old 03-23-2020, 11:37 AM
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Well, it's even worse than I thought. According to Peter Alexander, as far as Trump is concerned, we are already 7 or 8 days into those 15 days, so his decision is coming maybe about next Monday or so.
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Speaking objectively and concretely, Trump is arguing that the problem itself (millions of people getting infected and dying) cannot be worse than the cure (a stock market that makes Trump look bad).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SayTwo View Post
That's what you think it means, a bad stock market? Gosh, what a narrow (and telling) perspective.
Actually, HMS isn't far off. What's the worst thing Trump believes can happen to him? Anything which makes him look bad, including a bear market.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 03-23-2020 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:19 PM
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And that's the thing. By tomorrow, Trump will say something totally different. Then on Thursday or Friday he will deny saying either thing.

It's impossible to discern what the American plan is. Even granting that every country is thinking on its feet to some extent, there is a lot of value in reassuring the public by NOT appearing like an insane moron.
Some reporter should once again ask Trump to reassure the public, just to see him go off (again) on an insane insulting rant against a reporter.

They should all ask him that over and over and over until he has an attack and falls gibbering to the floor.
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:35 PM
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I really think the Dems should impeach him over this. Just because they've already done it once, so what? He's a clear and present danger to millions of Americans.

Of course the Senate wouldn't remove him. But at least they'd be confronted with the responsibility for thousands, perhaps millions, of deaths.
  #45  
Old 03-23-2020, 12:41 PM
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WTF is that even supposed to mean, "which way to go"? At the end of two weeks he'll decide whether or not to make the cure worse than the disease?
It means that he's giving the illegal alien Chinese virus until the end of the week to vacate the premises. If it hasn't by then, he'll send in ICE to arrest and deport it.
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:48 PM
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In a few days he’ll deny he ever said it and his cultist base will go along.
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:50 PM
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I have a feeling that this presidency has underlying health conditions, which likely won’t survive COVID-19. We will see once the general election starts. Until then, hopefully local government leaders will handle things well enough.
  #48  
Old 03-23-2020, 12:52 PM
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Some reporter should once again ask Trump to reassure the public, just to see him go off (again) on an insane insulting rant against a reporter.

They should all ask him that over and over and over until he has an attack and falls gibbering to the floor.
Heck, what was that outburst he had yesterday about "nobody thanks me?" He seems to be ever more touchy about it.
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:56 PM
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Heck, what was that outburst he had yesterday about "nobody thanks me?" He seems to be ever more touchy about it.
I think he's pissed off that he has to stand behind a podium every day and pretend to be on top of this, instead of out playing golf.
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:01 PM
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This is the culmination of decades of believing in the "cult of the individual." Of believing you can just "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." There is no leadership at the top, and those at the top are happy to see the country burn. I'm so, so sorry. So many Americans are about to die.
You forgot about the bit of "starving the beast" - defunding and shrinking government until it is "small enough to drown in a bathtub". There is a crowd that decades ago set out to dismantle the Federal government and they're the guys in charge now - they won, they succeeded.

If it wasn't so damn sad I'd laugh because so many of their stupid followers will die gasping for their last breath in the corridor of an overwhelmed hospital wondering how things got so bad so quick. I can't though - they're going to take a lot of other people with them.
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