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Old 03-24-2020, 05:33 PM
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What time should a 15 year old be out of bed?


I am having an ongoing argument with my 15 year old daughter

It is now 11:15 am, and she is refusing to get out of bed, saying things like
* It doesn't matter
* Why do you care
* EVERY other kid is allowed to sleep as long as they like

My argument is
* Sleeping till noon everyday for a fit and healthy person is unhealthy
* Not having any sort of schedule or goal and just "slothing" through the day is bad for your mental health
* Having curtains closed and people in bed till noon makes the house feel like a hospice - which is bad for the rest of the family.

So what says the dope?
* What is a "reasonable" time to expect a teen (15) to be out of bed?
* Is there any reliable study that I can cite to prove the effects of laziness and oversleeping?
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:39 PM
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Teens are wired to sleep late

It's not bad for her. Don't worry about it. Also, a third of the population are night owls anyway.

If you're concerned about her slouching around the house all day, give her some jobs to do. It doesn't matter if they get done at 9am or at 3pm, as long as there's enough actual material in there that she accomplished something during the day (either for herself or for the household, or both)
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:07 PM
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Agree about chores. And the household shouldn't have to tiptoe around to accommodate her sleep schedule. By the same token, she needs to keep it down when everyone else is sleeping normal hours. In other words, the household doesn't revolve around her.

My SIL is a night person who sleeps in till nearly noon. Now, he does work the night shift, but when he comes home, he'll be up till the wee hours of the morning. However, he's quiet - I never hear him get home nor do I hear him go to bed. And since it's because of his job, I have no problems waiting till he's awake before vacuuming. But I don't tiptoe around.
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post
Teens are wired to sleep late

It's not bad for her. Don't worry about it. Also, a third of the population are night owls anyway.

If you're concerned about her slouching around the house all day, give her some jobs to do. It doesn't matter if they get done at 9am or at 3pm, as long as there's enough actual material in there that she accomplished something during the day (either for herself or for the household, or both)
Well that's part of the issue - chores in the house are done in the late morning / early afternoon. If she's in bed they're not getting done.

Come early evening she wants time to talk to friends / watch tv / do whatever -
She's NOT working in the evenings.

Then what about sleep patterns for school? If you're getting up at 11 everyday, what is this doing to circadian rhthyms?
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
I am having an ongoing argument with my 15 year old daughter

It is now 11:15 am, and she is refusing to get out of bed, saying things like
* It doesn't matter
* Why do you care
* EVERY other kid is allowed to sleep as long as they like

My argument is
* Sleeping till noon everyday for a fit and healthy person is unhealthy
* Not having any sort of schedule or goal and just "slothing" through the day is bad for your mental health
* Having curtains closed and people in bed till noon makes the house feel like a hospice - which is bad for the rest of the family.

So what says the dope?
* What is a "reasonable" time to expect a teen (15) to be out of bed?
* Is there any reliable study that I can cite to prove the effects of laziness and oversleeping?
Is there anything you need her to do? No? Then leave her alone. Do you like when people come into your room and wake you up for no reason? No? Then why would you think your daughter likes it?
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:22 PM
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She's a kid. She'll grow out of it. And if she's very unlucky she'll be an insomniac.
My teens had chores and I just told them what to do. If it got done I never worried. If it went undone then there were consequences.

The lil'wrekker could sleep 14hrs straight, sometimes as a teen. She is now 21yo and is beginning to have sleepless times.
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:32 PM
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She's sleeping in because she has no reason to get up. Which is fine, because, well, she has no reason to get up.
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:40 PM
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To me 11:15 would be unreasonable, and I would consider removing her curtains from her room and explain how her actions affect others. There are reasonable limits and their are absurd limits, this fits in the second category. A doctor's visit would be in order on 2 levels, one is the potential excessive sleep and the second would be for mental health as her reply seems to indicate that being screened for depression may be in order.

I really suspect some form of depression.
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:45 PM
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To me 11:15 would be unreasonable, and I would consider removing her curtains from her room and explain how her actions affect others.
How does a person sleeping in their own room affect others?
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:46 PM
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The lil'wrekker could sleep 14hrs straight, sometimes as a teen.
The OP didn't say what time her daughter was going to sleep. Is she going to sleep at ten pm and sleeping fourteen hours until noon? Or is she going to sleep at four am and sleeping eight hours until noon?

One is a matter of excessive sleeping. The other is a matter of scheduling.
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:58 PM
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My argument is
* Sleeping till noon everyday for a fit and healthy person is unhealthy
There are some issues with that point.

Teens just need more sleep than adults. If you expect her to get by on your sleep schedule, you are depriving her of what her body needs. That is unhealthy. That will be inconvenient for people in the same house that need less sleep. If you truly care about her health, deal with the inconvenience.

There are health risks correlated with being a night owl. Correlation is not causation. Not everybody has the same internal sleep schedule. There is a pretty strong genetic component to what our natural sleep schedules are. If you read through the cite about half of what determines someones sleep schedule is determined by the time of her birth. That is a similar strength of genetic predisposition as she has for her sexuality. She may literally just have been born this way

There are people with societally normal sleep cycle dispositions that end up on later schedules. Some sleep hygiene work can get them on a more natural cycle which might be healthier for them. Those same techniques can help night owls operate differently than how they were born. For them it is a lifelong struggle against who they are to fit in. As one of those people, I can tell you it can be hard work to maintain that schedule. Trying to fit that square peg into society's round hole of acceptable sleep schedules comes with real costs. Moralizing by calling us lazy or unmotivated doesn't help.
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:59 PM
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I'm 41 and have always had a late sleep schedule (sometimes called DSPD). I sleep a healthy 7-8 hours every night, but from around 3-11.

School was miserable, largely as a function of this. Having to wake up four hours before my body was ready was not good for me, mentally or physically. It only relented when I went to college and could largely avoid early classes. Since then I've always managed to find jobs that fit my schedule.

There is absolutely nothing unhealthy about having a delayed schedule; on the contrary, it's unhealthy to force people with a late schedule onto a "normal" one.

As noted, this may be just an age thing, or it may be how your daughter is permanently wired. But regardless, if she is getting a normal amount of sleep (probably 7-10 hours is normal for a teen), there is nothing wrong. Find a way for her to do chores in your overlapping hours.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
The OP didn't say what time her daughter was going to sleep. Is she going to sleep at ten pm and sleeping fourteen hours until noon? Or is she going to sleep at four am and sleeping eight hours until noon?

One is a matter of excessive sleeping. The other is a matter of scheduling.
I'm a him not a her :-)

Re: Scheduling - she has her own room. I don't know what time she's sleeping.
If she wants to sleep "late" - fine, her problem to manage.
Bed time is expected to be around 11pm / midnight.
Assuming she's "chatting" on social media past then - I have very definite issues with that.
In my mind it's not a healthy lifestyle to be on social media all night and then sleeping all day.
Particularly when she is expected to help out around the house, and has other homework to be done
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:03 PM
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I'm 41 and have always had a late sleep schedule (sometimes called DSPD). I sleep a healthy 7-8 hours every night, but from around 3-11.

School was miserable, largely as a function of this. Having to wake up four hours before my body was ready was not good for me, mentally or physically. It only relented when I went to college and could largely avoid early classes. Since then I've always managed to find jobs that fit my schedule.

There is absolutely nothing unhealthy about having a delayed schedule; on the contrary, it's unhealthy to force people with a late schedule onto a "normal" one.

As noted, this may be just an age thing, or it may be how your daughter is permanently wired. But regardless, if she is getting a normal amount of sleep (probably 7-10 hours is normal for a teen), there is nothing wrong. Find a way for her to do chores in your overlapping hours.
Like it or not - during school time, she has to be at school by 8:15, I don't want to be falling into this habit of sleeping at 3 or 4 am - what's going to happen when back at school?
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:07 PM
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How does a person sleeping in their own room affect others?
For a start - what am I supposed to say to the younger sister? When she wants to go to bed late and then sleep late.
Next up - it affects her mother, having one of the rooms closed
It affects me - during the sunshine hours having someone asleep in a darkened room affects how I feel.
Unless there is a very good reason (nightshift or sickness) I very much associate this sort of sleep pattern with unproductive habits as well as slovenliness - it's not something that I will allow to be propagated.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:08 PM
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Having someone asleep in a dark room behind a closed door affects how you feel?
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:17 PM
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Having someone asleep in a dark room behind a closed door affects how you feel?
yep...it has an impact on the mood of the house and the others in it
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:19 PM
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For a start - what am I supposed to say to the younger sister? When she wants to go to bed late and then sleep late.
I don't see the problem here. Just tell both of them that if they get the thing done that need to be done in a timely matter, then they can sleep when they want.

Quote:
Next up - it affects her mother, having one of the rooms closed
It affects me - during the sunshine hours having someone asleep in a darkened room affects how I feel.
Why have rooms at all then?

Quote:
Unless there is a very good reason (nightshift or sickness) I very much associate this sort of sleep pattern with unproductive habits as well as slovenliness - it's not something that I will allow to be propagated.
Do you beat the wicked left-handedness out of her too? Have you banned music because it might lead to dancing?

Just let the poor kid sleep. She'll learn the hard way when she has to get up for school at the asscrack of dawn.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:24 PM
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Like it or not - during school time, she has to be at school by 8:15, I don't want to be falling into this habit of sleeping at 3 or 4 am - what's going to happen when back at school?
She's going to be groggy and grouchy for a couple of days (as are probably 2/3 of her classmates), and she'll very likely get back into her normal routine pretty quickly.

My natural sleep rhythm -- that is, what I fall into when I don't *have* to be up at a certain time -- is to stay up until 2 a.m. or so, and sleep until 10. I'm actually at my most creative from about 10 p.m. until 2 a.m. I've been that way since I was your daughter's age; I'm 55 now, and I've not ever had a problem with being able to get up for school or work.

I get it -- you don't like her sleeping in like that, and you're ascribing a number of vices to it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bengangmo
I very much associate this sort of sleep pattern with unproductive habits as well as slovenliness
She's 15. Assuming that she's at home because her school is closed due to coronavirus, bear in mind that social life, her routines, her entire world, have been disrupted. She might be depressed, sure, or she may just not want to have to deal with things.

Is she getting her chores done? Is she getting her assigned schoolwork (if there is any) done? Is she behaving herself otherwise? If the answers to those are "yes," IMO, get off her case. If she was sneaking out of the house to see her friends, or out there drinking (which a lot of bored teens are doing), *then*, yeah, you'd have some serious issues to deal with. Count yourself fortunate, and try to not make a mountain out of a molehill.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 03-24-2020 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:26 PM
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For a start - what am I supposed to say to the younger sister? When she wants to go to bed late and then sleep late.
Next up - it affects her mother, having one of the rooms closed
It affects me - during the sunshine hours having someone asleep in a darkened room affects how I feel.
Unless there is a very good reason (nightshift or sickness) I very much associate this sort of sleep pattern with unproductive habits as well as slovenliness - it's not something that I will allow to be propagated.
This is clearly mainly not about her. Its mainly about you. You need to separate your feelings and preferences from actual issues.

Its her obligation to do her homework, do her chores, and make it to school on time, when school is open.

Of shes not accomplishing those things, then intervention is justified, but the intervention should only be about getting those things done. Your feelings about a healthy lifestyle and being sad when a door is closed is not something your should be imposing on her.

This kid is 15 now, shes begun the process of pulling away from her parents and living her own life. Yes there are some thing in a broad sense that you should be supervising, such as her meeting her actual obligations and not doing anything illegal. But her Scheduling preferences should be left up to her. Youre not going to win any battles you chose to engage in that front.

As for the younger sister, supervised her the same way. She must meet her obligations, but beyond that its not up to her to adjust her sleep schedule to what makes you feel nice.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:26 PM
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I don't see the problem here. Just tell both of them that if they get the thing done that need to be done in a timely matter, then they can sleep when they want.
Things are not getting done in a satisfactory manner

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Why have rooms at all then?
Because I'm shy and I like to sleep naked?

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Do you beat the wicked left-handedness out of her too? Have you banned music because it might lead to dancing?
Given that I'm left handed that would be a bit rich
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:33 PM
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yep...it has an impact on the mood of the house and the others in it
Strange. How do you know what is going on behind a closed door?
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:33 PM
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Your feelings about a healthy lifestyle
This is the real crux of the issue -
I don't think that being on social media all night and then sleeping all day on a regular / ongoing basis is a healthy lifestyle.
I see it as part of being a parent to teach healthy habits,
Nothing I've ever seen allows me to associate this pattern of behaviour as being healthy.

this young lady is a "star" - she's very consistently at the top of her year group in the biggest school in our region. In her last standardised test she was in the top 10% of the country. Getting her schoolwork done is not the metric I want to see her measured by.
I have real issues with "coasting",
I have real issues with things becoming habit that are not things we want to cultivate. And one of these is living the lifestyle of people that I don't want to emulate
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:33 PM
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You gotta know there's not a parent of a teen alive who hasn't seen this. It's common and probably normal.
Pick your battles with this teen. This is a mild problem. There are so many worse things she could be doing.

ETA: I assume you own her devices. Take them away from her at night. Give her a book to read.

Last edited by Beckdawrek; 03-24-2020 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:35 PM
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It affects me - during the sunshine hours having someone asleep in a darkened room affects how I feel.
Unless there is a very good reason (nightshift or sickness) I very much associate this sort of sleep pattern with unproductive habits as well as slovenliness - it's not something that I will allow to be propagated.
So, wag your finger at her and say in a stern voice, "This is not something that I will allow to be propagated!"

Sounds to me like you may have control issues. And, WAG, maybe she's sleeping late in order to annoy you, rebel, and assert her individuality. There are much worse ways she could be doing so.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:36 PM
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Well that's part of the issue - chores in the house are done in the late morning / early afternoon.
Why? What chores are we talking about, and why must they be done at that time of day?
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:37 PM
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You gotta know there's not a parent of a teen alive who hasn't seen this. It's common and probably normal.
Pick your battles with this teen. This is a mild problem. There are so many worse things she could be doing.

ETA: I assume you own her devices. Take them away from her at night. Give her a book to read.
Exactly. This reminds me of my ex, whom my kids live with. She didn't like the fact that my son was up until 12 playing computer games. She actually watched him for 9 hours straight, just so she could tell me he played computer games on a Saturday for 9 hours straight. Hell, I've played games that long on a weekend.

I tried to tell her "He's home, in his room playing games. He's not doing drugs, or sneaking out, or causing trouble. What's the big deal?"

I still hear how he is playing computer games all day
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:39 PM
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This is the real crux of the issue -
I don't think that being on social media all night and then sleeping all day on a regular / ongoing basis is a healthy lifestyle.
I see it as part of being a parent to teach healthy habits,
Nothing I've ever seen allows me to associate this pattern of behaviour as being healthy.

this young lady is a "star" - she's very consistently at the top of her year group in the biggest school in our region. In her last standardised test she was in the top 10% of the country. Getting her schoolwork done is not the metric I want to see her measured by.
I have real issues with "coasting",
I have real issues with things becoming habit that are not things we want to cultivate. And one of these is living the lifestyle of people that I don't want to emulate
Shes 15. The days of teaching her by imposing your will on her are over. You are now merely on the role of advisor and counselor when she chooses to consult you. The sooner you face up to this, the happier you will be.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:40 PM
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She's 15. Assuming that she's at home because her school is closed due to coronavirus, bear in mind that social life, her routines, her entire world, have been disrupted. She might be depressed, sure, or she may just not want to have to deal with things.
This This is huge for these kids. I have a 14 and a 16 year old. I'm trying to be pretty gentle with them. They can sleep in and then they have to check online for their schoolwork and do it. Maybe one small chore a day. They've been almost completely cut off from their friends, their activities, the little bit of independence they had. They're hearing horrible, scary things in the news...my 16 year old heard a quick news item the other day about how a guy left his (youngish) wife, who had coronavirus, in the kitchen and when he came back she was dead on the floor. It scared the crap out of him. They're scared, and sad, and probably pretty angry that this is what their doing right now. Give her a break.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:41 PM
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Things are not getting done in a satisfactory manner
Then that's what you tell them.


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Because I'm shy and I like to sleep naked?
Don't you think that affects how she feels?


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Given that I'm left handed that would be a bit rich
But you seem to have the same "she must conform to my ways" attitude.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:42 PM
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Unless there is a very good reason (nightshift or sickness) I very much associate this sort of sleep pattern with unproductive habits as well as slovenliness - it's not something that I will allow to be propagated.
It is potentially wayyyyyy too late for that no matter what you do. If she is genetically predisposed to DSPD, you allowed it to be propagated when you got her mother pregnant. As much as you associate it with moral failings there is a real prospect that we are talking about is a simple mix of how she was born with the extra sleep needs of a teen.

If she told you she was gay would you take the same approach? Would you not be willing to let her behaviors be propagated? Would you be moralizing against her behaviors and asking us for advice on how to convert her to being straight? That is effectively what your approach is now. The predisposition towards later sleep schedules is just as strong.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:50 PM
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All of the arguments (aside from being a night owl) here so far have amounted to
"let her do what she wants"
Nobody has suggested that a up to 11 or more hours of sleep a night is healthy, or that being on a schedule of sleeping at 2 or 3 am is healthy or desirable

On the other hand, there is a wealth of information that links too much sleep and poor sleep habits to health and mental problems.

She's welcome to do whatever she likes with her time - go to sleep at time that suits her, I'm ok with that. She's also welcome to spend her time in the evenings doing whatever she wants.

My quid pro quo is that I expect her up in the mornings, being helpful and productive
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:54 PM
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All of the arguments (aside from being a night owl) here so far have amounted to
"let her do what she wants"
Nobody has suggested that a up to 11 or more hours of sleep a night is healthy, or that being on a schedule of sleeping at 2 or 3 am is healthy or desirable

On the other hand, there is a wealth of information that links too much sleep and poor sleep habits to health and mental problems.

She's welcome to do whatever she likes with her time - go to sleep at time that suits her, I'm ok with that. She's also welcome to spend her time in the evenings doing whatever she wants.

My quid pro quo is that I expect her up in the mornings, being helpful and productive
No, I don't think anyone is saying "let her do what she wants"

You seem to be bothered by what people are doing in their own room with the door closed depending on what time of day it is.

she's 15. Your time of controlling that behavior is over. Set some rules in your house "Vacuum the living room by 10 AM" or whatever. Of course, have a reason why it needs to be vacuumed by 10 AM other than "Because I said so"

It's too late to micromanage a 15 year old.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:56 PM
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Sounds like this will be a self-correcting problem.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:57 PM
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Nobody has suggested that a up to 11 or more hours of sleep a night is healthy
Is she actually sleeping 11+ hours a night? You said that you don't actually know when she's going to sleep:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bengangmo
Scheduling - she has her own room. I don't know what time she's sleeping.
What you aren't paying attention to here is those of us who are noting that her life has been turned upside-down. You're fixated on your belief that sleeping in is a sign of moral failure, and as being the first step on a slippery slope to a ruined future.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:58 PM
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Personally, were it my kid? I would have a talk with her and see what's going on. If she otherwise seems mentally okay, then I would leave her the hell alone.

When I was her age, I was up early. I simply couldn't sleep in until past even 8:30 a.m. or so. But many of my friends would routinely sleep in until 11 a.m or even noon on weekends and holidays. And these weren't some do-nothing jackasses. This was the salutatorian of our high school, for one. Plus a lot of other highly accomplished students.

My only concern is that is that if this was a great disruption from her normal sleep schedule, to talk to her and find out, as best as I can from a fifteen-year-old, because they're not known for being candid and open. But I wouldn't force her to be up just because it makes me feel lonely in the house or whatever. I don't blame her for wanting to sleep in these days. Hell, I would if I could (and I do to some extent -- last weekend I went to bed at 8 p.m. and slept in until 8 a.m. I needed the mental relief.)
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:01 PM
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If you don't want her to be on social media all night, put all the phones on chargers in a public place by 11. That's a perfectly fine restriction.

If you're ready to do housework before the kids are ready to do housework, just find them some things to do that you don't have to be involved in. Kick back with a beer or something while they're raking the lawn at four in the afternoon... you already did your bit.

If it just makes you uncomfortable to even know that they're there sleeping till the 'wrong' time ... that's kind of a 'you' thing, not a 'them' thing. If you need to make noise, make noise - if they really need to sleep, they can sleep through it
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:11 PM
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Like it or not - during school time, she has to be at school by 8:15, I don't want to be falling into this habit of sleeping at 3 or 4 am - what's going to happen when back at school?
For me, early on, I thought it was normal that I'd lay awake in bed for hours after going to bed at midnight. I couldn't will myself to fall asleep earlier. So I just suffered with the sleep deprivation and tried to make it up on the weekend. Today, I sleep extremely well now that I can choose my schedule.

If your daughter doesn't have some form of DSPD (due to youth or otherwise), then she'll be able to easily switch back to an early schedule when necessary. If not--well, then she'll have to suffer like I did. No point in depriving her of sleep now just because she might have to wake up early at some later point.

You don't seem to be very clear on whether your daughter is sleeping 11+ hours a night (probably a bit much), or sleeping normally but going to bed late. There's nothing abnormal about sleeping from, say, 3-12.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:18 PM
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Is she actually sleeping 11+ hours a night? You said that you don't actually know when she's going to sleep:
That's part of it...if she is only getting 6-8 hours of sleep a night because she's social media-ing instead of sleeping, I want her to feel the pain of that.

Decisions on what to do and when to do it have consequences, and time needs to be managed.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:23 PM
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That's part of it...if she is only getting 6-8 hours of sleep a night because she's social media-ing instead of sleeping, I want her to feel the pain of that.

Decisions on what to do and when to do it have consequences, and time needs to be managed.
Like strangelove and I have said, when school or something that matters happens again, she will definitely feel the pain then. Why cause her undue pain now over your pettiness?
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:25 PM
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I've never slept "well", and I've always been a morning person
I don't particularly care which it is: if she's sleeping 11 hours or going to sleep at 3am - neither are healthy and neither should be encouraged or made allowances to.
Today mum wanted help with the housework, she was told yesterday to help, the housework is started mid morning. There are not specific "who does what" but the team chugs through what needs to be done.
I'm not there - I leave the house for work at 7:30
Getting her up for school is a constant and ongoing battle.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:28 PM
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That's part of it...if she is only getting 6-8 hours of sleep a night because she's social media-ing instead of sleeping, I want her to feel the pain of that.

Decisions on what to do and when to do it have consequences, and time needs to be managed.

Everyone checks out from time to time, As others have said, this is a stressful time for kids. Talk to her about it (with the part where you need her "to feel the pain" of her indolence)

Give her your best advice and let her make her own decisions (and face her own consequences). Speak to her as if she's a beloved member of your family.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:30 PM
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... Speak to her as if she's a beloved member of your family.
Or even like an adult human.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:36 PM
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I've never slept "well", and I've always been a morning person
I don't particularly care which it is: if she's sleeping 11 hours or going to sleep at 3am - neither are healthy and neither should be encouraged or made allowances to.
Go back and read what DinoR said in Post #31.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:42 PM
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if she's sleeping 11 hours or going to sleep at 3am - neither are healthy and neither should be encouraged or made allowances to.
Blatantly untrue. 11 hours a night is a bit much and might warrant seeing a sleep specialist. But there's certainly nothing unhealthy about falling asleep at 3. Unhealthy is forcing your daughter into sleep deprivation because of some weird attitudes you have. Also unhealthy is treating these as some kind of moral failing.

I'm happy my parents didn't have the same attitude as you. They let me do my chores on my schedule. They reminded me that mowing the lawn at noon was going to be a lot hotter than at 9, but they let me choose. And I chose noon, because the heat was a lot less unpleasant than lack of sleep. Give your daughter the same options. She can do her share of the housework at some other time.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:42 PM
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Well here's the thing
I came here asking for advice on what could be said to her, what sort of "proof" could be shown that
a) not "all kids" are allowed to sleep until noon (despite her claims)
b) sleeping till noon is not healthy
I'm trying to talk to her like a rational human - "here are my expectations of you, here's what I want done"
In my mind - expecting someone out of bed by 9am (excepting special circumstances) is normal, reasonable and a part of life.
If I were home, I'd be getting her out of bed, I'm not home, I'm at work.
have sent a whole bunch of stuff that too much sleep is bad of health, and that having irregular sleep patterns is bad also
I am hoping to strengthen that by tapping on the collective wisdom of the dope
Instead I'm getting "teens will be teens" (boys will be boys?)
Just accepting that teens are supposed to be rebellious and sleep till noon is not something I feel comfortable with.
I've always believed that people will live up to or down to your expectations - my expectation is that people are out of bed, happy and productive during the day - not sleeping till noon like the proverbial moocher who can't hold a job
"what is there to get up for" is not something that I can live for - it too quickly becomes habit and self reinforcing if anything more than the occasional one-off (and it's not like I never let her sleep in)
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:47 PM
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Blatantly untrue. 11 hours a night is a bit much and might warrant seeing a sleep specialist. But there's certainly nothing unhealthy about falling asleep at 3. Unhealthy is forcing your daughter into sleep deprivation because of some weird attitudes you have. Also unhealthy is treating these as some kind of moral failing.

I'm happy my parents didn't have the same attitude as you. They let me do my chores on my schedule. They reminded me that mowing the lawn at noon was going to be a lot hotter than at 9, but they let me choose. And I chose noon, because the heat was a lot less unpleasant than lack of sleep. Give your daughter the same options. She can do her share of the housework at some other time.
Expecting people to be out of bed when the sun is shining is weird?
Asking that people keep to some sort of regular sleep / wake cycle is an unhealthy expectation?
If I come home in the evenings and ask her to complete what's expected eg: practise piano - the complaint is that it's evening and time to relax. According to what you're saying, I'm also not allowed to have the expectation that these things are done is in the earlier part of the day?
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:49 PM
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My parents woke my up 7 days a week in high school by no later than 8 am. When I went on vacations with my best friends family their dad would blare reveille every morning 1 hour after day break (during the summer no less) to ensure we had full days of vacation. Now that I'm a parent I let my kids sleep in but we give them no quarter on noise or access to their room unless they are sick. Once my kids are older they will be up working, playing sports or doing homework by 10 am every day. Being awake makes you productive.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:49 PM
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Well that's part of the issue - chores in the house are done in the late morning / early afternoon.
Why?

Is there an actual, explainable reason why chores must be done in the late morning/early afternoon?

i've been trying to think of one, for ordinary household chores, and failing. Cows and dairy goats need to be milked on schedule, or they'll be in pain and may get mastitis. And some specific household might milk at 11 AM and 11 PM instead of the more common times. But this isn't a matter of dairy farming; or even of needing to get a field planted before dark, or before the rain starts. Why does it matter what time of day the laundry gets done (you've got to be using a dryer, if you hung it outside you wouldn't be waiting till midday at this time of year), or the dusting, or changing the washers in the kitchen sink faucet? If she's not awake to deal with the breakfast dishes, have her do the dinner cleanup instead. Vacuuming shouldn't be done when most of the household is asleep, because it's noisy; but if you're all up at once between 2PM and 8PM, why can't she vacuum then instead of at noon? You, or whoever's doing the cooking, shouldn't be expected to produce meals on multiple schedules; but 15 is more than old enough to do her own cooking. And some of yours while she's at it; but she could cook supper, it doesn't need to be breakfast.

And, come to think of it, what happens when school is in session? Are you hauling her out of school so that she can do her chores in the middle of the day, instead of after school's out?

Not everybody does well on the same amount of sleep. Teens generally need more than older people, and may become temporary night owls for a while even if they're not that way lifelong. And yes, some people are that way all their lives. It's not a moral failing. We're getting work done at night long after the larks are asleep.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:58 PM
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Asking that people keep to some sort of regular sleep / wake cycle is an unhealthy expectation?
You're acting like it's totally under her control. Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. If she's like I was, then the choice was between going to bed at 3 vs. going to bed at midnight and laying awake for three hours. And so forcing me to wake at 7:00 meant I only got four hours of sleep. The rising sun has zero effect on me waking up.

It's reasonable to tell your daughter that she needs to do her chores, practice piano, etc. And it's reasonable to tell her that she can't do noisy things when others are trying to sleep. But there's more than enough time in the day for her to arrange those things. I don't know what kind of housework you're talking about, but most stuff doesn't require everyone to be working at the same time.
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