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Old 04-06-2020, 02:42 PM
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Boris Johnson moved to ICU


Apparently his condition has worsened.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:43 PM
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He's fucked.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:45 PM
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Is he on a ventilator? I think the ventilator survival rate is only 25-50%.

Looking it up, I'm just seeing that that is a Russian rumor. Who knows what condition he is in.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:45 PM
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I disagree with him and the entire Brexit situation, but I hope he does not die. Does the UK have a transfer or power during medical emergencies contingency?
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:46 PM
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I disagree with him and the entire Brexit situation, but I hope he does not die. Does the UK have a transfer or power during medical emergencies contingency?

Nothing so formal - he isn’t president. The Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab is deputising.


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Old 04-06-2020, 02:49 PM
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Is he on a ventilator? I think the ventilator survival rate is only 25-50%.

Looking it up, I'm just seeing that that is a Russian rumor. Who knows what condition he is in.
His office has confirmed that heís in the ICU. Jesus.

Last edited by flurb; 04-06-2020 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:02 PM
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Johnson strikes me as a buffoon, and a bit of a dope (despite being politically savvy), but he doesn't strike me as a total d-bag. I hope he pulls through.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:04 PM
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I disagree with him and the entire Brexit situation, but I hope he does not die. Does the UK have a transfer or power during medical emergencies contingency?
The Head of State is the Queen and in theory Johnson serves at her pleasure. She could sack him and appoint anyone else (you or me for instance) in his place and that person would have all the powers and privileges of that position.
In reality the PM needs a working majority in House of Commons and HM is doubtless in touch with senior party leaders as to contingencies and next steps.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:12 PM
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I also hope he recovers. Among other things, he has a baby on the way.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:33 PM
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Dang, yeah, he may be something of a prat but I hope he gets through it. OTOH, this serves as a sign to other top leaders everywhere. It can be you.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:33 PM
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His office has confirmed that he’s in the ICU. Jesus.
Wonderful. Hopefully some day you'll learn that the words 'ventilator' and 'ICU' aren't the same thing.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:34 PM
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Johnson strikes me as a buffoon, and a bit of a dope (despite being politically savvy), but he doesn't strike me as a total d-bag.
He doesn't strike me as a dope. He strikes me as being intelligent and articulate... and a total colostomy bag. My impression is that he's Britain's Trump (complete with the hair), but he actually knows things.

I haven't been following Johnson very closely at all. What has been his stance on the coronavirus? Did he downplay it like Trump?
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:39 PM
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He doesn't strike me as a dope. He strikes me as being intelligent and articulate... and a total colostomy bag. My impression is that he's Britain's Trump (complete with the hair), but he actually knows things.

I haven't been following Johnson very closely at all. What has been his stance on the coronavirus? Did he downplay it like Trump?
Britain's initial nationwide response to COVID was about as dumb as it gets, allowing people to carry on with the belief that there would eventually be herd immunity, blind to the dangers of overwhelming the NHS with a curve that was too steep.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:44 PM
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Johnson strikes me as a buffoon, and a bit of a dope (despite being politically savvy), but he doesn't strike me as a total d-bag. I hope he pulls through.
The buffoon thing is an act; on his HBO show, John Oliver showed clips that demonstrated this.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:53 PM
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Johnson strikes me as a buffoon, and a bit of a dope (despite being politically savvy), but he doesn't strike me as a total d-bag. I hope he pulls through.
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Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
Dang, yeah, he may be something of a prat but I hope he gets through it. OTOH, this serves as a sign to other top leaders everywhere. It can be you.
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Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
He doesn't strike me as a dope. He strikes me as being intelligent and articulate... and a total colostomy bag. My impression is that he's Britain's Trump (complete with the hair), but he actually knows things.
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Last edited by Colibri; 04-06-2020 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:53 PM
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He doesn't strike me as a dope. He strikes me as being intelligent and articulate... and a total colostomy bag. My impression is that he's Britain's Trump (complete with the hair), but he actually knows things.

I haven't been following Johnson very closely at all. What has been his stance on the coronavirus? Did he downplay it like Trump?
'I shook hands with everybody,' says Boris Johnson weeks before coronavirus diagnosis – video at the link (40 seconds).
Quote:
A month ago, Boris Johnson appeared to be on a mission to shake hands.

He locked paws with Holly Willoughby and Philip Schofield as he appeared on This Morning to discuss the latest steps to battle the then burgeoning outbreak, without alarming people.

He later manfully greeted Welsh Tory Lord Davies at the Welsh Conservative Party Conference in Llangollen.
Cite.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 04-06-2020 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:06 PM
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I'm just curious, does COVID-19 + ICU usually mean ventilator, or are there many COVID-19 patients in ICUs who aren't on ventilators?
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:11 PM
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I'm just curious, does COVID-19 + ICU usually mean ventilator, or are there many COVID-19 patients in ICUs who aren't on ventilators?
I'm quite sure that the two are not synonymous.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:20 PM
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He doesn't strike me as a dope. He strikes me as being intelligent and articulate... and a total colostomy bag. My impression is that he's Britain's Trump (complete with the hair), but he actually knows things.

I haven't been following Johnson very closely at all. What has been his stance on the coronavirus? Did he downplay it like Trump?
He studies classics, ancient literature and classical philosophy at Oxford - graduating with an upper second class degree, and he taught Latin at a boarding school in Australia during a gap year, so he's definitely not dumb.

And apart from that stupid comment about shaking hands (not sure if he was being serious when he said it but that might be even worse) the government has generally taken it seriously. I think they've let the scientists lead the approach and I've been impressed by the way he deferred to the medical officers at press conferences.

I'm absolutely not a fan of Boris, especially as he has been one of the leaders of the Brexit campaign, but he's not Trump.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:27 PM
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Nurses outside the ICU tend to be very uncomfortable managing ventilated patients. So most ventilated patients end up in the ICU if they have sufficient beds. However, although Johnsonís condition has worsened, he is still conscious and was moved as a precaution. I do not believe he is currently ventilated. However, they are also unlikely to have done this without some change in vitals. If I were to hazard a guess, I suspect that he requires oxygen and this is currently sufficient to keep his levels acceptable. But this is a guess, obviously.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:28 PM
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I'm just curious, does COVID-19 + ICU usually mean ventilator, or are there many COVID-19 patients in ICUs who aren't on ventilators?
BBC World News interviewed a doctor tonight who said that yes, if you get transferred to ICU as a result of Covid-19, this usually means that you need assistance breathing, which usually entails some sort of CPAP or ventilator. Summarizing, the doctor said that while Johnson isn't necessarily on a ventilator, it is, in his words, "likely".
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:37 PM
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I heard a report that said he is currently breathing on his own, but is being given supplemental oxygen.

If he's awake, he is probably not on a ventilator. They usually induce a coma for ventilator patients.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:38 PM
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I'm quite sure that the two are not synonymous.
No, but it's the most likely reason for a covid patient to end up in the ICU.

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BBC World News interviewed a doctor tonight who said that yes, if you get transferred to ICU as a result of Covid-19, this usually means that you need assistance breathing, which usually entails some sort of CPAP or ventilator. Summarizing, the doctor said that while Johnson isn't necessarily on a ventilator, it is, in his words, "likely".
CPAPs aren't ordinarily used in a hospital setting, especially with infectious patients, because they are not designed to contain any germs the patient exhales, and they can increase the force of that exhalation.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:51 PM
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CPAPs aren't ordinarily used in a hospital setting, especially with infectious patients, because they are not designed to contain any germs the patient exhales, and they can increase the force of that exhalation.
Maybe so, but I'm almost certain that this doctor specifically named CPAP. And Google searches for "covid-19 cpap" do turn up an awful lot of news articles indicating that CPAP machines are being used for Covid-19 patients. (For example, here's one from The Guardian.)
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:52 PM
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When I was a candy-striper (1983-84), patients could still smoke in hospital rooms, and there were doctor/nurse lounges where smoking was allowed. But not on the ICU/CCU floor, because for pretty much everyone, oxygen was in use. So it got to be that anyone who needed oxygen went to ICU.

As I understand it, it had become such a standard thing to send anyone who needed oxygen (not including post-surgical patients getting it in recovery) to ICU, that it was still standard practice long after the whole hospital became non-smoking.

If this happened in a lot of hospitals, there still might be an impetus to send people who needed oxygen to ICU, and a lot of people with pre-existing conditions may come in ALREADY on oxygen.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:55 PM
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Sorry. I didn't realise I was making a political jab. My point was that from what little I know, Johnson is intelligent and articulate.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:05 PM
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I'm quite sure that the two are not synonymous.
I never implied or asked if they are synonymous. I asked specifically about COVID-19 patients, whether the usual reason for being taken into ICU is because they need to be on a ventilator.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:18 PM
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Sorry, wasn't thinking.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:21 PM
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Not to be morbid, but suppose he dies. His party names his successor. Do you suppose they could do the bit where the Queen invites this person and tells him to form a government in person? Seems to me that this could be done over the phone or by video chat.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:29 PM
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Nurses outside the ICU tend to be very uncomfortable managing ventilated patients. So most ventilated patients end up in the ICU if they have sufficient beds. However, although Johnsonís condition has worsened, he is still conscious and was moved as a precaution. I do not believe he is currently ventilated. However, they are also unlikely to have done this without some change in vitals. If I were to hazard a guess, I suspect that he requires oxygen and this is currently sufficient to keep his levels acceptable. But this is a guess, obviously.
According to The Guardian, Johnson already had oxygen available in the ward he was in, so it seems unlikely that he would have been transferred to ICU only to get oxygen. The article says that according to the WHO, most people in ICU require ventilation, and that 63% of people in England who are admitted to ICU get ventilated within 24 hours. It also states that people on ventilators are sedated but not unconscious.

At the end of the article, the doctor who I saw on BBC World News in quoted. He says that Johnson is currently on CPAP, not a ventilator. ISTR he also made this claim in the TV interview, whereupon the anchor corrected him that there is no confirmation of this from the PM's office, and the doctor agreed that he was simply speculating. I'm not sure if The Guardian is taking the doctor's words from his TV interview out of context, or if the newspaper subsequently interviewed the doctor, who had come into possession of new information about Johnson's condition.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:38 PM
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Sorry, sir -- forgot where I was.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:52 PM
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Sorry. I didn't realise I was making a political jab.
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... and a total colostomy bag.
Moderating

I was assuming "total colostomy bag" was not intended as a compliment.

To the others, apologies noted.

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Old 04-06-2020, 06:01 PM
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I disagree with him and the entire Brexit situation, but I hope he does not die. Does the UK have a transfer or power during medical emergencies contingency?
Short answer: nobody seems to know.
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Old 04-06-2020, 06:11 PM
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No, I donít think so. Oxygen may have been available in his ward, but if the amount needed increased significantly this would cause concern. Johnson is a VIP and would certainly be offered a higher level of care given concerns. That said, most ward nurses are not comfortable managing CPAP either. Even the use of non-invasive ventilation is a somewhat troubling sign.

Although there are many reasons to be in an ICU, for Covid ventilation is likely the top of a long list.
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Old 04-06-2020, 06:27 PM
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Boris Johnson moved to ICU


British ICU Doctor on the radio says the NHS moves patients to intensive care before they need a ventilator when their oxygen levels get a bit low because if you wait you will not be able to react in time. He says people can deteriorate very very quickly - from talking to their families and feeling relatively okay to dead in just three to four hours. He says that in the next 24 hours Boris will either be on a ventilator or become stable. If he has to go onto a ventilator then he will stand a 53% chance of survival.

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Old 04-06-2020, 08:01 PM
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Not to be morbid, but suppose he dies. His party names his successor. Do you suppose they could do the bit where the Queen invites this person and tells him to form a government in person? Seems to me that this could be done over the phone or by video chat.
I don't think the Queen is going to be meeting in person with anyone outside carefully screened staff anytime soon. Including her own family other than Prince Philip.

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Old 04-06-2020, 08:39 PM
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I read an article somewhere (BBC?) that said he was moved in case he needs a ventilator. Ergo, he's not on one. It could just be an oversight by the author, but it seems evidence is leaning against him being on one.
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Old 04-06-2020, 08:49 PM
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Patients crash in busy ERs all the time. They get intubated, all the drugs and equipment should be close by and ready. Then they are attached to a ventilator and moved to the ICU when a bed is available.

The wards have oxygen. Intubation carts and equipment are generally brought from the emergency or the ICU if a patient crashes on the ward. This takes time. So if someone is getting worse and you are thinking you need to intubate, you either do it or transfer to a (step down) ICU or higher level of care. CPAP might allow one to avoid intubating and subsequent ventilation. But if they moved him, he got worse enough that they considered it. They are not going to take chances with a high profile patient.
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:07 PM
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CPAPs aren't ordinarily used in a hospital setting, especially with infectious patients, because they are not designed to contain any germs the patient exhales, and they can increase the force of that exhalation.
I doubt we are alone in my hospital but, here, anybody with covid pneumonia who might normally receive BiPap is intubated. Full stop. There is simply too much potential aerosolization of the virus otherwise.
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:20 PM
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The strange lead-up to Boris Johnson's admission to hospital: Repeated denials of prime minister’s worsening condition now coming under scrutiny

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...on-to-hospital
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:30 PM
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Generally, anybody stable on oxygen can be on a regular ward. However, if they are requiring high doses of oxygen and/or deteriorating, they will be moved to the ICU for preventative reasons. With Covid 19 deterioration can be rapid and we are talking about a VIP so those are 2 reasons to have him in the ICU. AIUI, although CPAP (or more likely BiPAP) is a concern with Covid because of aerosolization of the virus, it is standard of care for other diseases to try it before intubation and if there is a ventilator shortage it may free up ventilators. They may also want to do anything possible to avoid having the PM sedated and therefore technically unable to function so this may be a case where the odds are shifted in favor of trying CPAP/BiPAP.
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:44 PM
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Is Boris on the roof?
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:50 PM
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He is not a normal patient. He would have had access to a high very level of care at home. Near hospital level. The very fact he was taken to hospital suggest that the ICU was coming.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:02 PM
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Is Boris on the roof?
With the cat?
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:06 PM
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With the cat?

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Old 04-06-2020, 10:10 PM
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Is Boris on the roof?
Yep. He's a spider.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:17 PM
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Is Boris on the roof?
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Yep. He's a spider.
Nah, then he'd be hanging from the ceiling.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:28 PM
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Nah, then he'd be hanging from the ceiling.
Now he's up above your head.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:33 PM
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Boris the Spider....
{youtube link}
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Old 04-07-2020, 12:21 AM
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They may also want to do anything possible to avoid having the PM sedated and therefore technically unable to function so this may be a case where the odds are shifted in favor of trying CPAP/BiPAP.
I think he needs to be concerned about his health and/or life. He shouldn't be trying to keep working through this. Raab can man the oars while he recovers. Take some time off Boris!
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