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Old 05-20-2020, 07:59 AM
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You Know What's Gonna Be Awkward? Jimmy Carter's Funeral.


First off I am sure Jimmy Carter like any man his age has made his funeral plans. Maybe in Washington, maybe in Plains, maybe in Atlanta. But still it will be a Big Deal.

Further, as a decent Christian man you just know he will not specifically exclude Donald Trump from the festivities. As sitting president he will be expected to make the main eulogy. President Trump will not be able to refuse, unless he fakes a heart attack or something.

Also, you have to assume either or both Joe Biden and Barack Obama will speak as leaders of the Democratic Party, They would have to be made of stone to not make President Trump sweat in silence on his pew.

Writing either of those speeches would be a finely balanced task. In any case, it will be must-see TV.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:13 AM
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Further, as a decent Christian man you just know he will not specifically exclude Donald Trump from the festivities. As sitting president he will be expected to make the main eulogy. President Trump will not be able to refuse, unless he fakes a heart attack or something.
Under normal circumstances the sitting president would be asked to make an eulogy (not necessarily the ‘main’ eulogy, but at least to speak). However, in this case...no one is going to ask Trump to speak at any funeral because the man can barely string words together into a coherent sentence even when they are projected in front of him, and Trump would almost certainly take the opportunity to badmouth his ‘opponents’ including the deceased given that Carter has (in his own subtle way) expressed his contempt for Trump. Notice how leaders of countries that are traditionally allied with the United States have stopped inviting Trump to visit or made state visits to the US because all it accomplishes is embarrassment for everyone involved?

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Old 05-20-2020, 08:14 AM
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Eh, Jimmy said he thought Trump was an illegitimate President. He's not inviting Trump.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:24 AM
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In these uncertain times, hope can be hard to come by. But here's hoping ol' Jimmy outlives The Don and renders your entire premise moot.

But seriously(er), Jimmy has been Not The President for 91 years in total, and he has only paused his quest to become a better person a couple times since then to defeat fucking cancer. For a man like him, President of the United States is just something he did once, a long time ago. I could see his service being held privately in Plains, but even a simple event like that reeks of ostentatious self-agrandizement in Carter Land. The Ex Presidents may organize their own thing, because it's an opportunity for them to grandstand and virtue-signal, but a humble guy like Jimmy? No way he'd participate in that. You don't say "goodbye" to a fellow like him, you pick up his hammer and continue his work.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:43 AM
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There is no way Trump will speak at Carter's funeral.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:47 AM
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There is no way Trump will speak at Carter's funeral.
There's no way Jimmy will predecease Donny.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:53 AM
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In these uncertain times, hope can be hard to come by. But here's hoping ol' Jimmy outlives The Don and renders your entire premise moot.

But seriously(er), Jimmy has been Not The President for 91 years in total, and he has only paused his quest to become a better person a couple times since then to defeat fucking cancer. For a man like him, President of the United States is just something he did once, a long time ago. I could see his service being held privately in Plains, but even a simple event like that reeks of ostentatious self-agrandizement in Carter Land. The Ex Presidents may organize their own thing, because it's an opportunity for them to grandstand and virtue-signal, but a humble guy like Jimmy? No way he'd participate in that. You don't say "goodbye" to a fellow like him, you pick up his hammer and continue his work.
Well said.

Quoting the cover: "PRESIDENT CARTER "ACCEPTS FULL RESPONSIBILITY..." (all caps theirs).

https://images.app.goo.gl/7rj4y4J57SAvYeJK7

I'm trying to imagine a greater contrast than Carter and Trump. <crickets>
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Old 05-20-2020, 09:12 AM
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Further, as a decent Christian man you just know he will not specifically exclude Donald Trump from the festivities. As sitting president he will be expected to make the main eulogy. President Trump will not be able to refuse, unless he fakes a heart attack or something.


Trump didn't speak at George H.W. Bush's funeral. Why do you think he would be expected to speak at Carter's funeral?
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Old 05-20-2020, 09:29 AM
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Is there any particular reason to believe Jimmy Carter is at death's door? I know he's 96 and was hospitalized for falls last year, but AFAICT he hasn't contracted Covid 19 or anything. The OP is pretty creepy, IMHO.
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Old 05-20-2020, 09:35 AM
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Is there any particular reason to believe Jimmy Carter is at death's door? I know he's 96 and was hospitalized for falls last year, but AFAICT he hasn't contracted Covid 19 or anything. The OP is pretty creepy, IMHO.
Pretty much anyone who is 96 is knocking pretty hard on death's door, or at least wiping their feet on the welcome mat.
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Old 05-20-2020, 09:39 AM
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Is there any particular reason to believe Jimmy Carter is at death's door? I know he's 96 and was hospitalized for falls last year, but AFAICT he hasn't contracted Covid 19 or anything. The OP is pretty creepy, IMHO.
I'm picturing this thread being pulled up 20 years from now; people laughing at us thinking that Jimmy Carter, 116 years old, was soon to die at 96.
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Old 05-20-2020, 09:41 AM
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I'm picturing this thread being pulled up 20 years from now; people laughing at us thinking that Jimmy Carter, 116 years old, was soon to die at 96.
Death came take Carter, but Jimmy invited him in for hot apple cider and a light lunch with Rosalynn, and Death was so humbled he left without his reap.

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Last edited by Stranger On A Train; 05-20-2020 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 05-20-2020, 09:45 AM
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Death came take Carter, but Jimmy invited him in for hot apple cider and a light lunch with Rosalynn, and Death was so humbled he left without his reap.

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Maybe he'll become the new Chuck Norris...
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Old 05-20-2020, 10:14 AM
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Further, as a decent Christian man you just know he will not specifically exclude Donald Trump from the festivities.
No, that's exactly why he WOULD exclude Trump.
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Old 05-20-2020, 10:14 AM
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Maybe he'll become the new Chuck Norris...
He'll have to go through Betty White. Cancer gets Betty White, and falls Betty White on their way to the kitchen.
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Old 05-20-2020, 10:48 AM
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Further, as a decent Christian man you just know he will not specifically exclude Donald Trump from the festivities. As sitting president he will be expected to make the main eulogy. President Trump will not be able to refuse
I genuinely don’t get why you say Trump “will not be able to refuse”. Seems to me that he of course could, if he happens to feel like it, refuse; if there’s any common ground between folks who lavish all kinds of praise on Trump and folks who say he’s the worst president ever, I figured they could agree on this: he’ll gladly refuse to do stuff that many would expect from a normal president.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:41 AM
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First off I am sure Jimmy Carter like any man his age has made his funeral plans.
I read someplace that soon after the inauguration someone from the Military District of Washington meets with the new president to discuss funeral plans. I'll bet they update those from time to time, even for retired presidents.

Another awkward one would be if the UK queen passes while Trump is still president. Presumably he will be expected to attend, but without making it about him.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:55 AM
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Another awkward one would be if the UK queen passes while Trump is still president. Presumably he will be expected to attend, but without making it about him.
Can the Brits charge him by proxy for a 250 year old instance of treason? Cuz that'd be awesome medicine.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:09 PM
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Under normal circumstances the sitting president would be asked to make an eulogy (not necessarily the ‘main’ eulogy, but at least to speak). However, in this case...no one is going to ask Trump to speak at any funeral because the man can barely string words together into a coherent sentence even when they are projected in front of him, and Trump would almost certainly take the opportunity to badmouth his ‘opponents’ including the deceased given that Carter has (in his own subtle way) expressed his contempt for Trump. Notice how leaders of countries that are traditionally allied with the United States have stopped inviting Trump to visit or made state visits to the US because all it accomplishes is embarrassment for everyone involved?
There's an unusual consensus among the people who don't want Trump to speak because they dislike him and don't want to give him an opportunity to talk about himself and the people who don't want Trump to speak because they have some respect for Trump and don't want to give him an opportunity to embarrass himself in public.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:25 PM
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Jimmy Carters funereal would be awkward because every idiot would be coming out of the woodwork to tell us how he was "The Greatest Liberal President since Roosevelt" and "The No War President" despite the fact his actions literally lead to the deaths of more people than Trump, probably only dwarfed by George W Bush due to Carters love of sending money to prop up 3rd World Anti-Commie Dictators.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:27 PM
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Carter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg just need to hang on until the next Democratic president. Period.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:55 PM
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Carter is a good man, but he was not the POTUS that this country needed at the end of the 1970's. He did not have the leadership skills that were needed.

I wish him an even longer and fuller life, than he has already lived.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:43 PM
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Very much this ^^^ Jimmy is far too good a man to make for a good, or even meaningfully effective, POTUS. In an ideal world, maybe, but that's not where we live.
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:05 PM
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In these uncertain times, hope can be hard to come by. But here's hoping ol' Jimmy outlives The Don and renders your entire premise moot.

But seriously(er), Jimmy has been Not The President for 91 years in total, and he has only paused his quest to become a better person a couple times since then to defeat fucking cancer. For a man like him, President of the United States is just something he did once, a long time ago. I could see his service being held privately in Plains, but even a simple event like that reeks of ostentatious self-agrandizement in Carter Land. The Ex Presidents may organize their own thing, because it's an opportunity for them to grandstand and virtue-signal, but a humble guy like Jimmy? No way he'd participate in that. You don't say "goodbye" to a fellow like him, you pick up his hammer and continue his work.
Wow. I agree completely. JC is arguably the finest Man ever to have been POTUS.
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:59 PM
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Carters love of sending money to prop up 3rd World Anti-Commie Dictators.
Huh? The usual complaint about Carter's foreign policy is that he put too high a priority on human rights and was unwilling to tolerate dictators.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:08 PM
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Huh? The usual complaint about Carter's foreign policy is that he put too high a priority on human rights and was unwilling to tolerate dictators.
Jimmy Carter is a mirror we all hold up to ourselves.

We all agree he wasn't much of a President but we answer "why?" in contradictory and often counterfactual ways.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:18 PM
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I voted for Carter in both 1976 and 1980. Love the man. His funeral will not be awkward, because Chump will not be going anywhere near it.
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Old 05-20-2020, 05:32 PM
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probably only dwarfed by George W Bush due to Carters love of sending money to prop up 3rd World Anti-Commie Dictators.
Overlooking that whole little "Vietnam" thing.

Which 3rd World Anti-Commie dictators did Carter support that Nixon/Ford and Reagan/Bush I not support?
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:00 PM
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Jimmy Carter is a mirror we all hold up to ourselves.

We all agree he wasn't much of a President but we answer "why?" in contradictory and often counterfactual ways.
But seeing as Carter was the Cold War era President who was the least willing to send money to "3rd World Anti-Commie Dictators" it seems like a strange thing to single him out for.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:20 PM
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There's no way Jimmy will predecease Donny.
From your keyboard to G-d's screen.

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Carter is a good man, but he was not the POTUS that this country needed at the end of the 1970's. He did not have the leadership skills that were needed.
I was alive in 1976. I was 9, but I was aware of how much people wanted to get away from Watergate and Vietnam, and celebrate the Bicentennial with a fresh start. The Dems could have nominated a black Jewish lesbian against Nixon's VP (and the man who pardoned him) and she would have won. OK. Maybe not. But they probably could have nominated a popular Jewish woman like Gilda Radner, or a black, closeted lesbian with political savvy like Barbara Jordan.

The only way the Republicans had any hope in 76 was to distance themselves from Watergate and Vietnam. I'm not sure who that could have been, but there was probably someone. Ford was the least likely person to win.

Even Reagan probably would not have won in 76, because he won by rallying the religious right, which were not there to be rallied in 76, and at any rate, the "middle" was still too far left, post-Vietnam. Even most Vietnam vets were feeling betrayed, and voting Democrat in 76.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:27 PM
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Overlooking that whole little "Vietnam" thing.

Which 3rd World Anti-Commie dictators did Carter support that Nixon/Ford and Reagan/Bush I not support?
I would assume the poster in question is referring to the authoritarian regime of Suharto, the dictator of Indonesia whose gradual but effective overthrow of the democratically elected Sukarno and 1975 invasion of East Timor (under the Ford Administration) was tacitly backed by the CIA and support for which was continued under the Carter Administration to the approximate tune of US$250M of weapons and aid and the deaths of an estimated 200k Timorese. It is certainly not a shining moment for the US as a whole and Carter's shame that his administration did not end that support, but Indonesia was seen as being a strategically important relationship to the United States and while East Timor was of no strategical significance whatsoever having it go socialist under Frente Revolucionária de Timor-Leste Independente would have been viewed as another "falling domino" in the region as the US was still licking its wounds over Viet Nam.

I don't think it is remotely possible to be president without getting some blood on your hands; in this case, this was a relationship that Carter inherited from not only his predecessor but administrations going back to Kennedy, and what we judge today in the rear view window of history may have had a very different appearance in the context of 1977-79 where Carter was just trying to hold the country together and deal with the various economic, social, and energy crises dumped in his lap, notwithstanding an intelligence apparatus that intentionally defied and misinformed him. Even when it comes to executive policy, a president can't really snap his fingers and instantly pivot long established policy without doing significant damage and undermining his and the nation's credibility.

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Old 05-20-2020, 08:40 PM
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It would sure be easy if all the world leaders would wear black hats or white hats to tell who is absolutely good and who’s absolute evil.

Trump doesn’t go to Carter’s funeral. He will send Pence whom will make a boring speech with bible quotes that can appeal to both the left and right.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:55 PM
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Trump doesn’t go to Carter’s funeral. He will send Pence whom will make a boring speech with bible quotes that can appeal to both the left and right.
That is actually more offensive than Trump going himself. Carter is an affirmed evangelical Southern Baptist but he never proselytizes or tries to force his beliefs on others, nor did he try to institute his beliefs as policy. Pence is...the opposite.

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Old 05-20-2020, 09:00 PM
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...Even when it comes to executive policy, a president can't really snap his fingers and instantly pivot long established policy without doing significant damage and undermining his and the nation's credibility.

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Which we are seeing happen under trump.
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Old 05-20-2020, 09:17 PM
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Which we are seeing happen under trump.
Well, Trump has been actively alienating close allies and courting the sort of authoritarians that we used to only talk to through covert intermediaries. Basically, he's doing out in the open what the CIA has been doing for decades, only with even more incompetence because this is a man that can't even successfully run a business with a statistically guaranteed gross profit margin. Basically, we just need to have Robert DeNiro fire him.

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Old 05-20-2020, 09:18 PM
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That is actually more offensive than Trump going himself. Carter is an affirmed evangelical Southern Baptist but he never proselytizes or tries to force his beliefs on others, nor did he try to institute his beliefs as policy. Pence is...the opposite.

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Carters funeral will not be a state event. Not to mention Carters faith during the service would be insulting. And Carter did institute his beliefs in his foreign policy.

https://www.sjsu.edu/people/jennifer...ntialStyle.pdf

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All too often, the religion of President Carter is ignored in the scholarly literature on his presidency. Much of the Carter scholarship either entirely ignores Carter’s faith, or notes it so briefly that one gets the sense it was not that important to him, or that he separated it from his politics. Carter himself (1994, vii) once wrote that the impact of religion on politics is not “commonly recognized or easily quantified.”
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Old 05-20-2020, 09:19 PM
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I was alive in 1976. I was 9, but I was aware of how much people wanted to get away from Watergate and Vietnam, and celebrate the Bicentennial with a fresh start. The Dems could have nominated a black Jewish lesbian against Nixon's VP (and the man who pardoned him) and she would have won. OK. Maybe not. But they probably could have nominated a popular Jewish woman like Gilda Radner, or a black, closeted lesbian with political savvy like Barbara Jordan.

The only way the Republicans had any hope in 76 was to distance themselves from Watergate and Vietnam. I'm not sure who that could have been, but there was probably someone. Ford was the least likely person to win.

Even Reagan probably would not have won in 76, because he won by rallying the religious right, which were not there to be rallied in 76, and at any rate, the "middle" was still too far left, post-Vietnam. Even most Vietnam vets were feeling betrayed, and voting Democrat in 76.
The late Shirley Chisholm, a black woman, was a viable candidate in 1972.

Anyway, chances are Carter will outlive Trump, just because he takes better care of himself.

There was an old "Far Side" cartoon where people are flying around in little pods, and the marquee said, "TONIGHT: George Burns." I could see someone doing the same thing with Betty White.

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 05-20-2020 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 05-21-2020, 12:43 AM
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Further, as a decent Christian man you just know he will not specifically exclude Donald Trump from the festivities. As sitting president he will be expected to make the main eulogy. President Trump will not be able to refuse, unless he fakes a heart attack or something.
Trump wasn't invited to McCain's funeral despite the fact they were from the same party. All healthy former presidents, including Carter, were. "Decent" and "gutless" are not the same thing.
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Old 05-21-2020, 01:21 AM
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The late Shirley Chisholm, a black woman, was a viable candidate in 1972.
Of course she was. She was not as radical a choice as Barbara Jordan, not being a lesbian (albeit, closeted, in the 70s, but people were speculating), as far as I know. I was just kind of blowing off steam. My parents liked Shirley Chisolm, but they were huge fans of Barbara Jordan. It was practically shiva in our house when she retired early due to her announcement that she had been diagnosed with MS. They both liked Geraldine Ferraro a lot, but they were lamenting it couldn't have been Barbara Jordan.
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Trump wasn't invited to McCain's funeral despite the fact they were from the same party. All healthy former presidents, including Carter, were. "Decent" and "gutless" are not the same thing.
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Old 05-21-2020, 04:53 AM
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There have been presidents who died before, leaving survivors of different political persuasion. Has there ever been an awkward one.
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Old 05-21-2020, 11:42 AM
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Trump wasn't invited to McCain's funeral despite the fact they were from the same party. All healthy former presidents, including Carter, were. "Decent" and "gutless" are not the same thing.
A quick wiki check shows Trump didn't speak at George Bush's funeral either, which is not surprising considering the first Bush had openly critized Trump and admitted he voted for Hilary Clinton. So Bush's funeral found time for Brian Mulroney and the Oak Ridge Boys, but not the sitting president.
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Old 05-21-2020, 01:16 PM
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...Trump doesn’t go to Carter’s funeral. He will send Pence whom will make a boring speech with bible quotes that can appeal to both the left and right.
This.

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That is actually more offensive than Trump going himself. Carter is an affirmed evangelical Southern Baptist but he never proselytizes or tries to force his beliefs on others, nor did he try to institute his beliefs as policy. Pence is...the opposite.

Stranger
Naw, Pence will be bland and boring, and say generic Christian things that aren't offensive.
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Old 05-21-2020, 02:03 PM
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I read someplace that soon after the inauguration someone from the Military District of Washington meets with the new president to discuss funeral plans. I'll bet they update those from time to time, even for retired presidents.

Another awkward one would be if the UK queen passes while Trump is still president. Presumably he will be expected to attend, but without making it about him.
That's correct.

President Carter would have made his initial funeral plans almost half a century ago.

It would have been almost half a century since he got to drive on public roads too. Once you become president you lose that freedom for life. Maybe he gets to do the odd lap around the peanut farm.

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Old 05-21-2020, 04:01 PM
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I would assume the poster in question is referring to the authoritarian regime of Suharto, the dictator of Indonesia whose gradual but effective overthrow of the democratically elected Sukarno and 1975 invasion of East Timor (under the Ford Administration) was tacitly backed by the CIA and support for which was continued under the Carter Administration to the approximate tune of US$250M of weapons and aid and the deaths of an estimated 200k Timorese.
Even if that was what he meant, the death toll in just the Central American civil wars was far greater than that, and the right-wing forces were supported by the Republican administrations before and after Carter to a greater extent than Carter did. And Suharto's purge of Communists in 1965, with a death toll of anywhere from half a million to several million, had US support. Of course Suharto continued to be supported by the US after Carter.

Asuka's allegation that Carter caused more deaths by supporting 3rd World Dictators than other presidents during that era is simply ludicrous.

Last edited by Colibri; 05-21-2020 at 04:03 PM.
  #45  
Old 05-21-2020, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
Asuka's allegation that Carter caused more deaths by supporting 3rd World Dictators than other presidents during that era is simply ludicrous.
Yeah, I agree. I was just referencing the particular event that is typically identified by people wanting to argue that "Carter was a blood-thirsty maniac like all the rest, see!" which is what happens when you listen to Noam Chomsky and don't thoroughly fact-check his claims.

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  #46  
Old 05-21-2020, 06:33 PM
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A story about Jimmy Carter by a former Secret Service agent named Jerry Parr (the man who got Reagan into the car after being shot at)

Quote:
While President Carter took chances with his personal safety, he never wanted to risk harming others. But in desperation he approved a highly dangerous secret commando mission to free the hostages. In the pre-dawn darkness of April 25th 1980, eight helicopters rendezvoused in the desert. A fierce sandstorm stuck forcing three choppers to return to their ship. At least six helicopters would be required to carry everyone out. Only five remained and the mission was aborted. Then things got even worse. Preparing to leave the desert - before taking off - eight men were killed and at least one survivor was horribly burned when a helicopter collided with a C-130 support aircraft in a refuelling area near the site.

The United States was humiliated. With the element of surprise now blown, another rescue mission attempt would be impossible. The militants immediately dispersed the hostages to different parts of Tehran. After that Carter almost never smiled. I saw him losing weight. His grief for the hostages was now magnified by losing the rescuers. And I imagined he grieved for his own helplessness.

A week after the failed rescue he said to me "Jerry, I want to fly to Texas. Keep this as quiet as you can. I don't want any publicity."

The President and I flew to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio where I had done my basic training thirty years earlier. No press knew about the trip. Our destination was Brooke Army Medical Center where a surviving pilot was being treated for severe burns. As we walked into the hospital I flashed back to the Clark Air Force Base in Manilla with Humphrey thirteen years earlier where I witnessed first hand the horrors of war. But this was my first time with burn victims. The Vietnam burn victims were sent to Japan.

At the Burn Center a doctor led us to a huge window through which we could see several beds. Since this was peacetime only one was filled. The lone patient was swathed head to toe in bandages. Only his eyes, mouth and nostrils were exposed. A nurse attended to him and the only sounds were the hiss of oxygen tanks and the musical ping ping of machines connected to different parts of the patient's body.

"He's conscious," the doctor said. "But we really don't expect him to live"

President Carter said to the doctor "I'd like to go in and speak to him. May I?"

The doctor hesitated. He was afterall in the US Army and his commander-in-chief stood before him. But he wanted to protect his patient. After an awkward minute he explained his dilemma.

"He's totally vulnerable to infection. We have to maintain his sterile field. If you go in you'll have to dress in surgical greens and cover your nose and mouth."

Carter readily agreed. We both changed our clothes, covered our hair and shoes, and put on face masks. But then I realized he really wanted private time with a man he put in a situation which may have killed him or ruined his future.

I recall Jesus's words, all who are humble themselves will be exalted. This president was humbling himself. That takes a different kind of courage. The patient was physically vulnerable but the president was making himself emotionally vulnerable.

I said "Mr President, I don't have to go in. I'll just watch you from the window".

Carter entered and stood by the soldier's bed. Like the patient, only the president's eyes were visible. He said something and the soldier turned his head very slowly to the sound of the voice. This was a man wrapped head to toe in bandages. And in unspeakable pain he raised one hand and saluted Carter. Carter returned his saltue.

Watching from the window gratitude filled my heart and spilled down my cheeks. I knew I was witnessing a supreme act of compassion. A holy moment born of mutual pain and forgiveness. When the president came out neither of us said a word. There are times when silence is more profound than words can ever be.

The soldier lived.
  #47  
Old 05-21-2020, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boycott View Post
A story about Jimmy Carter by a former Secret Service agent named Jerry Parr (the man who got Reagan into the car after being shot at)
That's a great story. I think we all can guess with how much fanfare how Chump would have handled the same visit.
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  #48  
Old 05-21-2020, 11:31 PM
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I imagine the closest Trump would get to Carter's funeral would be walking by the casket as he is lying in state, and maybe saying a few words. For better or worse, I could see Pence coming down to Plains for the funeral.

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  #49  
Old 05-21-2020, 11:39 PM
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Did Pence attend Bush's funeral? Don't remember.
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Last edited by Siam Sam; 05-21-2020 at 11:39 PM.
  #50  
Old 05-22-2020, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
Did Pence attend Bush's funeral? Don't remember.
"They did a wonderful job, he almost looks alive!"

"No, honey, that's Pence, Bush is the one lying down next to him."

Last edited by kayaker; 05-22-2020 at 05:56 AM.
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