# 1/3 of Americans are absolute morons! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2013, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064 "2013-04-07T10:22:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/41 "2013-04-07T21:31:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe. One hypothesis about why Europeans are so much less religious than Americans is that having a state sanctioned Church makes one more suspicious of organized religion than when there are literally dozens of churches to choose from, none any more official than another. But even in countries with a state-sanctioned church, aren’t there still boundless options to choose from (I’m assuming a Western-style country here, not Iran)? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/42 "2013-04-07T21:39:08Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > But even in countries with a state-sanctioned church, aren’t there still boundless options to choose from (I’m assuming a Western-style country here, not Iran)? Yeah, most of which were invented in America,. 🙂 But it’s not just the state sanctioning, it’s the state financing. Makes it harder to compete. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/43 "2013-04-07T21:47:19Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > But even in countries with a state-sanctioned church, aren’t there still boundless options to choose from (I’m assuming a Western-style country here, not Iran)? There are, but most people default to the state church and people belonging to other churches are kind of regarded as fundies(though by US standards they’re probably just average church goers). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/44 "2013-04-07T21:57:05Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > 1/3 of Americans are absolute morons! But we knew that, didn’t we? It’s the guiding assumption when dealing with other people. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/45 "2013-04-07T21:58:59Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > But even in countries with a state-sanctioned church, aren’t there still boundless options to choose from (I’m assuming a Western-style country here, not Iran)? Iran is hardly homogenous religiously and officially recognizes not just Muslims(both Sunni and Shia) but Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians. Obviously being a Bahai is extremely dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/46 "2013-04-07T22:02:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe. One hypothesis about why Europeans are so much less religious than Americans is that having a state sanctioned Church makes one more suspicious of organized religion than when there are literally dozens of churches to choose from, none any more official than another. That’s certainly what De Tocqueville believed IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/47 "2013-04-07T22:06:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Nah. You’re ignoring context. > > Monty made no claim that any nation anywhere in which people wanted a state religion was populated by morons. His specific claim was in regard to the U.S. where there is a long history both of separation of church and state and of state persecution of various religious groups. > > A nation such as Norway where the state support of a specific denomination happens to extend back several hundred years and where the society has become mostly secular while leaving the state/religion entanglements as a cultural artifact that harms no one is a separate situation that provides significantly different context. I suspect many Muslim immigrants in Norway would probably disagree. You’ll notice Bruckner’s link regarding the Swedes pointed to Muslim and other non-Christian immigrants being the impetus for Sweden’s decision in 2000 to sever the Church state connection. I was happy to hear that. Now if only the Canadians, Brits and Australians would follow. Also, what “long history” does the US have of “state persecution of various religious groups”? The only thing I can think of was the Mormons and the treatment of various Indian tribal religions, but that was due to race not religion. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/48 "2013-04-07T22:09:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Obviously being a Bahai is extremely dangerous. Called a Baha’i minister/mullah/whatever the other day. While he was not extremely dangerous (that I know) he was less pleasant than I expected. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/49 "2013-04-07T22:17:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was happy to hear that. Now if only the Canadians, Brits and Australians would follow. AFAIK none of those have a state church. Not even the “Brits,” but England does. That means not the rest of Britain: not Wales, NI, or Scotland (and the CoS is Presbyterian, anyway). Yes, the Queen is the head of the Church of England, but it is not in that regard that she is also the head of state of many countries. Although I wouldn’t doubt that people think her being on the money is idolatry. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/50 "2013-04-07T22:24:09Z")
A writer at Vanity Fair does sort of sum it up nicely: > [@](#): > > [The Creeping Danger of Conspiracy Theorists | Vanity Fair](http://www.vanityfair.com/online/eichenwald/2013/04/creeping-danger-conspiracy-theorists) > > That doesn’t mean that these uninformed folk are harmless. Fifty-four percent of Americans—more than half the country!—either believes that childhood vaccinations cause autism or aren’t sure whether they do. Never mind that study after study, including one just released by the Centers for Disease Control, say this belief is uneducated malarkey. Why should anyone consider that when we have former Playboy model and B-movie actress Jenny McCarthy disagreeing? Yes, that is where we are: Americans are more likely to believe a nursing-school dropout than PhDs from America’s most prestigious institutions of higher learning. I co-authored a book on vaccines published by a reputable publisher. Here’s the latest review from exactly that kind of idiot: > [@](#): > > Propaganda, Taking a Page from Edward Bernays, April 7, 2013 > This review is from: \*\*Your Baby’s Best Shot: Why Vaccines Are Safe and Save Lives \*\*(Hardcover) > > This book is financed by pharma, written by pharma, promoted by pharma and pharma will be happy to prescribe medication for you once they have harmed you and your children. These people are pure evil. Just check out Ms. Hagood on Facebook. One of the most foul mouths you will ever have the misfortune to witness. If you don’t fall in line with vaccinating according to the CDC schedule, you will be showered with filthy names and accused of murdering your children. Steer clear from her and this book. Do you know how many times my co-author and I have been personally accused of being funded by pharmceutical companies? Despite the fact that neither one of us has ever worked for them? This is the sort of paranoid, stupidity I constantly run into on this topic. Every single time an article on vaccines gets published the idiots come out to make dumb comments. And while it is true that over nine out of ten parents vaccinate, a significant number will skip or delay vaccination despite there being no evidence that such a delay will help their children. It’s not just the United States. [Wales is currently in the middle of a huge outbreak](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/hundreds-queue-for-mmr-jab-as-welsh-measles-outbreak-slows-8563140.html) of measles because of non-vaccination. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/51 "2013-04-07T22:34:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Iran is hardly homogenous religiously and officially recognizes not just Muslims(both Sunni and Shia) but Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians. > > Obviously being a Bahai is extremely dangerous. Please let’s not pretend that Iran has an expansive, tolerant and accepting view towards religions other than Islam. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/52 "2013-04-07T22:35:18Z")
No, 1/3 of americans are not absolute morons. I have a few friends who agree with the proposed sentiment, and they are engineers, teachers, and generally successful. In other words, **not** complete morons. They just believe what the church tells them more than people who say otherwise. So you, **Monty** are not doing anyone any favors here. A more appropriate title might be “1/3 of americans just don’t get it!” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/53 "2013-04-07T22:42:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Huh. I thought the pilgrims fled England because they wanted a state religion that happened to be different from England’s state religion. They did, and once they got to North America they legislated religion to a far greater extent that in England. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I hate to hear what Monty thinks of most Europeans since many if not most European countries have state religions. > > He must think virtually all Swedes are complete morons. Judging by Europe it would seem that the most effective way to turn the masses away from religion is to establish a state church. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > …I was happy to hear that. Now if only the Canadians, Brits and Australians would follow… [Australia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_116_of_the_Constitution_of_Australia) does have seperate of church & state, at least at the federal level. In theory a state could establishe a state church, but none have ever done so. IIRC the Church of England was technically the established church in the early NSW colony, but that ended at the insistence of Anglican clergy who wanted independence from civil authorities. In the UK only England and Scotland have (their own) state churches. Canada also has seperation of church & state, except for the odd government-run Roman Catholic school in some provinces. Quebec as gotten highly secular since the 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/54 "2013-04-07T22:43:08Z")
So, if there was an official state religion in the US (probably on a state-by-state basis) would American culture not dictate an elective office for its leadership? For instance, would the people vote for a candidate for Archbishop of Nebraska every couple years? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/55 "2013-04-07T22:57:02Z")
It must be all those welfare-loving Americans. All Scandinavian countries have or had until recently a state church. The state church of Denmark was established specifically to minimize the role of religion in politics. Compare to the USA it worked fine. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/56 "2013-04-07T23:51:56Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > No, 1/3 of americans are not absolute morons. I have a few friends who agree with the proposed sentiment, and they are engineers, teachers, and generally successful. In other words, **not** complete morons. > > They just believe what the church tells them more than people who say otherwise. So you, **Monty** are not doing anyone any favors here. A more appropriate title might be “1/3 of americans just don’t get it!” Engineers and teachers, or any other lay profession, does not require people to believe all the time. I’m sure your successful engineering friends are not praying to an entity when they’re designing a new, low-emissions engine. They are relying on the real number one in their lives: themselves, and the lay-education that taught them to do it. Equating religious belief to success seems like equating regular bowel movements to success. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/57 "2013-04-08T00:22:04Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Engineers and teachers, or any other lay profession, does not require people to believe all the time. I’m sure your successful engineering friends are not praying to an entity when they’re designing a new, low-emissions engine. They are relying on the real number one in their lives: themselves, and the lay-education that taught them to do it. > > Equating religious belief to success seems like equating regular bowel movements to success. No one is equating anything. All the guy is doing is making the same statement **Thudlow Boink** made. You cannot tell by one moronic belief if someone is a moron. And if you don’t like Christians saying that you aren’t really an atheist and that atheism isn’t a religion, you might want to refrain from saying they believe only in themselves and not in God. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/58 "2013-04-08T00:26:40Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Engineers and teachers, or any other lay profession, does not require people to believe all the time. Actually, professions like biologist and doctor and many others do, depending on the religion. Engineers for example tends towards religion far more than biologists (thus my example); religion is very intrusive about biology, but much less likely to make pronouncements about engineering. Outside of the occasional Christian insisting that _pi_ = 3. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’d like to see a poll of how many people think Obama wants to make Islam the official religion of the US. Or Satanism. Or _both at once._ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/59 "2013-04-08T00:39:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I suspect many Muslim immigrants in Norway would probably disagree. Really? There were numerous Muslim protests against Lutheranism in Sweden before 2000? There was a strong Muslim movement to de-nationalize the church? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’ll notice Bruckner’s link regarding the Swedes pointed to Muslim and other non-Christian immigrants being the impetus for Sweden’s decision in 2000 to sever the Church state connection. Which, I suspect, was carried out in the typical Scandinavian manner of simply looking around, deciding that the majority nominal-Lutherans were no longer getting much out of their “official” church, and deciding to drop the whole thing so that their fellow countrymen would feel more comfortable. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also, what “long history” does the US have of “state persecution of various religious groups”? > > The only thing I can think of was the Mormons and the treatment of various Indian tribal religions, but that was due to race not religion. The federal government has not done much active persecution, but it tolerated states doing all manner of things. New York, at one time, banned Catholic priests from wearing clerical garb in public. For over fifty years, Massachusetts required that every man belong to a church and permitted each church to levy its own taxes on its members for support. No specific church was named, but the majority Congregationalists “collected” anyone who could not point to membership in a different church. Several states had official churches that had a say in the government. A couple of states had laws into the mid nineteenth century prohibiting Papists, Jews, “Mohammedans” and others from holding public office. (And apprentices were required to attend church with their masters, regardless of the church that master or apprentice attended.) Schools conducted religious classes using the KJV bible, following whichever Protestant denomination happened to have the most political clout in the city. (Catholic neighborhoods were burned and people murdered when Catholics expressed the desire to use the Douai-Rheims translation rather than the KJV.) Limits were set on the number of Jews or Catholics who could attend colleges, even public schools. Similar rules were established to prevent Jews and Catholics from buying houses in various cities. (Such rules were not set at the federal level, but they were tolerated by the federal government until the mid 1960s.) Does the U.S. have a history of state-initiated pogroms or federal persecution? No. However, “state persecution” has occurred and would probably resume if freed from the constraints of the Constitution as currently construed. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/60 "2013-04-08T00:49:04Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > AFAIK none of those have a state church. Not even the “Brits,” but England does. That means not the rest of Britain: not Wales, NI, or Scotland (and the CoS is Presbyterian, anyway). Yes, the Queen is the head of the Church of England, but it is not in that regard that she is also the head of state of many countries. Although I wouldn’t doubt that people think her being on the money is idolatry. All of them have some levels of the co-mingling of Church and State. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064.md?page=4)