# 1/3 of Americans are absolute morons! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2013, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064 "2013-04-07T10:22:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/81 "2013-04-08T16:33:34Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Okay. How about “1/3 of Americans are absolute morons _when it comes to the issue of Separation of Church and State_”? Yeah, I could get behind that. Actually, I talked with my friend yesterday who said he led a prayer this weekend at a school sponsored banquet. I told him that’s unconstitutional. He said he didn’t care. When it comes to most things, he’s a great guy. He’s just so damn stubborn over this religious nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/82 "2013-04-08T16:50:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I was referring to those who are demanding “ceremonial deism,” not to a state religion. If you think there aren’t those demanding ceremonial deism, then you’ve somehow missed seeing the whole “In God We Trust” discussion in the public sphere. Well, if you’re going to go after the people who want (I’m not using the term “demand”) ceremonial deism, then you’re looking at _waaaaay_ more than 1/3 of Americans. It’s probably more like 90%. A battle that is lost in the starting blocks. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/83 "2013-04-08T16:55:20Z")
I have to wonder how many think that an official state religion is about the same as deciding on an official state bird or official state rock. Not that we should do that version either, but it’s somewhat less awful if it’s purely ceremonial. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/84 "2013-04-08T17:19:04Z")
It _wouldn’t_ be purely ceremonial, or the idea wouldn’t be getting proposed at all. The real motives are pretty clear, as is their origin in evangelism. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/85 "2013-04-08T17:31:31Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This might be clearly crossing over into the pedantic, but the U.S. Constitution never uses a phrase or a phrase similar to “separation of church and state.” Now, that is a “constitutional theory” widely accepted by all legally literate Americans and recognized and enforced by countless court rulings and pieces of legislation. But it arises out of the first part of the first amendment, which starts off with the establishment clause (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”) and that is really the heart of this particular issue. > > Separation of church and state is a legal/constitutional concept developed over many years of jurisprudence and societal development to cover all the areas outside of that which aren’t **explicitly** covered by the First Amendment. Basically the first amendment only **explicitly** prohibits establishing a State religion or interfering with the free exercise of religion. > > It’s only through tradition, law, and our evolving body of case law that the concept of “separation of church and state” was developed. Ultimately based on the theory that if you do not separate church and state you’re **inherently** interfering with the free exercise of religion and possibly establishing a specific religion. > > So the pedantic part is, when talking about an actual **attempt to establish a religion** there is no reason to talk about or use the SOCAS phrase, instead we can simply say this is a clear violation of the **explicit** establishment clause of the first amendment. I polled myself on these points and the results are in: your concerns are 100% pedantic. Yes, the phrase “separation of church and state” does not appear in the U.S. Constitution. It’s merely a convenient shorthand that concisely and in a much more user-friendly way sums up the exact sentiment of the Establishment Clause. If you say “Establishment Clause” to the average American, you’ll get a blank stare. So, we all agree to rephrase it as “separation of church and state” and everyone is happy. Except for pendants. But they’re never happy anyway, eh? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/86 "2013-04-08T17:37:34Z")
> [@Spiff](#): > > Yes, the phrase “separation of church and state” does not appear in the U.S. Constitution. It’s merely a convenient shorthand that concisely and in a much more user-friendly way sums up the exact sentiment of the Establishment Clause. And yet the Establishment Clause has never been interpreted as creating an actual separation of Church and State. “Ceremonial Deism” is a judicial fig leaf created to cover up that fact. There’s nothing “ceremonial” about Congress having official chaplains and opening every session with a prayer. So, yeah, we have “separation of Church and State”. Except where we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/87 "2013-04-08T17:44:23Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > I have to wonder how many think that an official state religion is about the same as deciding on an official state bird or official state rock. Not that we should do that version either, but it’s somewhat less awful if it’s purely ceremonial. Could we make Jesus the State Bird? He can fly, right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/88 "2013-04-08T17:57:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > At least, that’s the take-away I get from [this story](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/06/christianity-state-religion_n_3022255.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl31%7Csec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D294578): > > More at the link above. > > I don’t know what to say. I’m gobsmacked at the stupidity. You’re just pissed 'cos when they say “Christian” you know they don’t mean “Mormon.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/89 "2013-04-08T17:58:19Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Well in light of the Colonists plight, the only real solution then is to make the official state religion the Church of England! Which has been called a very accommodating church, in that it interferes neither with a man’s politics nor with his religion. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/90 "2013-04-08T18:01:13Z")
People in America want freedom from oppression. They want the freedom _to_ oppress others. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/91 "2013-04-08T18:02:43Z")
Quoted for more truth than we are really comfortable with: Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” ``` He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/92 "2013-04-08T18:06:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, if you’re going to go after the people who want (I’m not using the term “demand”) ceremonial deism, then you’re looking at _waaaaay_ more than 1/3 of Americans. It’s probably more like 90%. A battle that is lost in the starting blocks. I fear, sir, that you are correct in your estimation. Sad, damned sad, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/93 "2013-04-08T18:08:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You’re just pissed 'cos when they say “Christian” you know they don’t mean “Mormon.” 😉 [Looks around surreptitiously]Shhhhhh! Don’t let that secret get out![/las] ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/94 "2013-04-08T18:08:42Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > It’s not just the United States. [Wales is currently in the middle of a huge outbreak](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/hundreds-queue-for-mmr-jab-as-welsh-measles-outbreak-slows-8563140.html) of measles because of non-vaccination. I thought of you and your book last week. One of my coworkers came back from Easter vacation looking like he had the worse case of juvenile acne ever, despite being in his late 30s. Turns out that he didn’t get the chickenpox vaccine when he was little, he hadn’t had chickenpox, and his son had brought it home from kindergarten. Someone asked him “haven’t you vaccinated him?” “☹ it’s hard enough to get them the compulsory vaccinations ☹ my wife is _one of those_…” “ouch! :(” The only one who didn’t get chickenpox was the (vaccinated) wife. Father, 4yo son and 2mo daughter did. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/95 "2013-04-08T18:09:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And yet the Establishment Clause has never been interpreted as creating an actual separation of Church and State. “Ceremonial Deism” is a judicial fig leaf created to cover up that fact. There’s nothing “ceremonial” about Congress having official chaplains and opening every session with a prayer. > So, yeah, we have “separation of Church and State”. Except where we don’t. If you are making the point that we have lax enforcement, then I agree with you. If you are making another point, then I’m not seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/96 "2013-04-08T18:12:41Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > So just who is demanding it ? so far there is no evidence presented that anyone is demanding an official state religion. All that poll shows is that 1/3 of Americans are okay with it without giving it much thought. > > No reason to get your panties in a twist. From the West Wing > [@](#): > > Josh: 68% think we give too much in foreign aid, and 59% think it should be cut. > Will: You like that stat? > Josh: I do. > Will: Why? > Josh: _Because 9% think it’s too high, and shouldn’t be cut_! 9% of respondents could not fully get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for “I have utterly no idea what you’re talking about. Please, God, don’t ask for my input.” There should be no intelligence test for voting. But there \*should \*be an intelligence test for polling. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/97 "2013-04-08T18:12:48Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I fear, sir, that you are correct in your estimation. Sad, damned sad, isn’t it? Yeah, but of that group: [ul] [li]80% have no idea wtf ceremonial deism means[/li][li]5% are doing it just to piss you off[/li][li]40% honestly can’t understand why it would bother Muslims, Jews, etc.[/li][li]50% would do exactly nothing to preserve it[/li][li]16% have genital herpes[/li][/ul] Hmmm, maybe that shouldn’t make you feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/98 "2013-04-08T18:21:43Z")
I was just reading a [Council on Foreign Relations report](http://blogs.cfr.org/patrick/2011/12/08/surprising-international-human-rights-consensus/) on international polling results on human rights. I found this tidbit particularly interesting: > [@Council on Foreign Relations](#): > > Indeed, another 2011 Pew poll found that 61 percent of respondents in twenty-three nations agreed that “followers of any religion should be allowed to assemble and practice.” The highest levels of support were recorded in Turkey (80 percent) followed by Poland and Nigeria, both at 77 percent. (Ironically, despite the U.S. Bill of Rights, only two thirds of Americans—67 percent—supported this proposition).a Yay, America, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/99 "2013-04-08T18:24:52Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I thought of you and your book last week. > > One of my coworkers came back from Easter vacation looking like he had the worse case of juvenile acne ever, despite being in his late 30s. Turns out that he didn’t get the chickenpox vaccine when he was little, he hadn’t had chickenpox, and his son had brought it home from kindergarten. Someone asked him “haven’t you vaccinated him?” “☹ it’s hard enough to get them the compulsory vaccinations ☹ my wife is _one of those_…” “ouch! :(” > > The only one who didn’t get chickenpox was the (vaccinated) wife. Father, 4yo son and 2mo daughter did. That always makes me so mad. A friend of mine was babysitting. The kid’s mother did not tell her the kids had chicken pox! She was an immigrant from Colombia so she had not gotten the shot. She wound up with a nasty case of it including scars and two weeks away from work. Chicken pox can be a mild disease granted. But I had mine when I was seven when there was no vaccine. Over a week of itching and scratching and feeling utterly miserable. A shot would have been so much easier. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064/100 "2013-04-08T18:25:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Perhaps some are Christian fundies who are desperate to hurry along the Apocalypse, and are voting for someone they think is the Antichrist because having the Antichrist in power brings the Second Coming closer. I suspect a portion might also believe he’s the Antichrist and voting for him anyway simply because fuck this gay Earth, regardless of any specific belief regarding the post-fucking environment. I totally would. It’s not often curiosity can kill _all the cats_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-americans-are-absolute-morons/655064.md?page=6)