# 1/3 of overweight people can never lose weight by dieting. T/F? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 24, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391 "2010-06-24T18:16:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/181 "2010-06-29T21:11:37Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Do you know anything at all about anorexia? Seriously, one single thing? My ex when she was sick would have proclaimed to the high heavens that her diet was just fine. **That was 90% of the battle in getting her better** –the fact that she simply could not see that what she was doing was unhealthy, that it was quite literally killing her by degrees. Yes, she was sick. You have to see that isn’t the same as what you originally stated, though. You said that she didn’t know HOW to eat properly and that she really, really thought that eating one slice of toast a day and nothing else was a healthy way to live. Do you really believe she thought that? Anorexic and bulimic people know that one piece of toast isn’t a healthy way to live. They know how they are eating is wrong and that’s what makes the disease so insidious. They HIDE what they’re doing because they do know it’s wrong. They lie about what they eat and don’t eat and what and how they purge. It’s an illness. I believe there are many, many people who have an overeating illness. You bet. That’s why earlier in this thread I stated that these people (IMHO anyone who is morbidly obese) should be receiving psychological counseling for their illnesses along with diet and exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/182 "2010-06-29T21:22:23Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Do you know anything at all about anorexia? Seriously, one single thing? My ex when she was sick would have proclaimed to the high heavens that her diet was just fine. **That was 90% of the battle in getting her better** –the fact that she simply could not see that what she was doing was unhealthy, that it was quite literally killing her by degrees. What if someone claimed that 33% of anorexics can’t gain weight by eating more food? I think what most of the naysayers in this thread are saying is that the difficult part of weight gain/loss is mental. What makes it so difficult is that people with unhealthy weight (either too much or not enough) play all sorts of mental games to convince themselves that it’s _ **not** _ mental but something else that is keeping them from a healthy weight. People who contend that “it’s complicated” or “it’s the medication” or “some people will still gain weight even if they eat nothing” are giving credence to the mental games. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/183 "2010-06-29T21:30:38Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Yes, she was sick. You have to see that isn’t the same as what you originally stated, though. You said that she didn’t know HOW to eat properly and that she really, really thought that eating one slice of toast a day and nothing else was a healthy way to live. > > Do you really believe she thought that? Actually, yeah. She told me (post-recovery) that “medieval saints lived on a handful of beans or nothing a day, so I thought I could do it too, if I had enough willpower.” I think you underestimate how badly people with eating disorders can mess themselves up mentally. This is not the same as somebody telling themselves something like “If I ignore the bee buzzing around this room, it will go away.” It’s as if you could point at the floor and say “the carpet is blue”, and the affected individual would say, “you’re crazy, it’s red”–because that’s what they honestly think it is, and no amount of reason will convince them otherwise. One of her friends, who had dealt with bulimia, made what I thought was a very cogent comment about eating disorders and eating issues of all stripes in general. If you’ve got a problem with alcohol, you can make a start by stopping drinking, avoiding bars, not hanging out with people who goad you into “just one pint,” etc. If you’ve got a problem with gambling, you stay away from casinos, bookies, etc. If you’ve got a problem with eating–well, you can’t stop eating for long and stay alive. You have to continue doing the thing that’s killing you (whether in the short term or the long term), but in a healthy way. It’s as if you could live by taking poison, just so long as you took the right amount of poison. When I myself started dieting some time ago, I started eating less, and I was losing weight, but it was a disaster: I was cranky, irritable, and just not a great person to be around. It was only later, when I learned (as it were) that the goal wasn’t merely to eat less but to eat foods that contained the same levels of nutrients I needed but with fewer calories, that I got back to being my old (still cranky but not overmuch) self. I suppose I could have stopped earlier, had **tygre** not been so patient, but then I don’t think everyone’s got that luxury. The thing is that _eating well_, as opposed to merely eating less, is a learned behavior. In a much less radical way than my ex, eating less let me get where I wanted to go, but not in a particularly healthy or sustainable way. And the constant hollow refrain of “eat less” in this thread will encourage the same behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Gruntled](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/34f0e0/32.png) [@Gruntled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gruntled)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/184 "2010-06-29T21:40:44Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > AIf you’ve got a problem with eating–well, you can’t stop eating for long and stay alive. You have to continue doing the thing that’s killing you (whether in the short term or the long term), but in a healthy way. It’s as if you could live by taking poison, just so long as you took the right amount of poison. Yet another faulty analogy. And one that is often trotted out as an excuse. Every fat person I’ve ever known is fat because of the **types** of foods they gorge on. Chips, cookies, candy, cupcakes. Sugary foods like breakfast cereal, sweet breads. Fattening comfort foods like butter, ice cream, fried chicken, hot dogs, macaroni and cheese. Full-sugar sodas. 2nd and 3d helpings of anything they want. I have NEVER seen one sit down and gorge on a huge bowl of - salad. Or a giant plate of green beans. There are plenty of healthy foods that you can eat as much as you want of and not get fat. Obese people don’t want those foods. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/185 "2010-06-29T21:53:08Z")
> [@Gruntled](#): > > Every fat person I’ve ever known is fat because of the **types** of foods they gorge on. Chips, cookies, candy, cupcakes. Sugary foods like breakfast cereal, sweet breads. Fattening comfort foods like butter, ice cream, fried chicken, hot dogs, macaroni and cheese. Full-sugar sodas. 2nd and 3d helpings of anything they want. And you know this how? I’m done with writing to you. Even **Sleeps With Butterflies** , who generally agrees with what you say, called you out on using the term “fatties.” You have nothing worthwhile to contribute to a rational conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/186 "2010-06-29T22:07:45Z")
> [@Gruntled](#): > > I have NEVER seen one sit down and gorge on a huge bowl of - salad. Or a giant plate of green beans. I have, actually. It always includes gobs of dressing. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/187 "2010-06-29T22:08:16Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Forgive me for not believing a word you’re saying. I’ve read your posts for a while now on many topics. I know the angle you’re trying to work. Some may buy it, I do not so let’s move on. No, let’s not. I have no “angle” I’m trying to “work”, and suggesting that you understand some deeper and, let us not mince words anymore, _ **deceptive** _ reality about me and what I’m saying is without foundation of any kind. Whatever else anyone thinks about me, I’m who I say I am and I am entirely truthful. When I mean to be sarcastic, I am plain about it and if it is misunderstood as sincere I correct the misunderstanding. This is GQ. To the extent that I or anyone else speaks about ourselves, it is to offer our personal experiences and/or our knowledge, period. Continued attempts to make this about me in some larger sense, especially connected and referenced to my infamous legal threads and legal struggles, will be met with my ignoring you completely. > [@](#): > > Why is it that the people who think they know the most about weight loss are people who are twice as big as they should be? Because in many cases the struggle with obesity is exactly what drives one to get the information. People who dont’ have weight issues have no motivation to get the information, people with weight issues do. People who don’t have weight issues have absolutely no idea what it takes to lose and maintain weight, because it comes naturally to them. An analogy would be the way I understand how to speak and write English. I’m very good at it, entirely naturally. Once I learned to read, that and being raised by my parents, who set excellent examples, was all I needed. I naturally understand the correct way to use the parts of speech and punctuation, no struggle, no study, no thought. But I would be utterly lost if I had to teach it to people who had no idea. Why certain things are done a certain way is completely mysterious to me. Outside of being able to name the simplest of things: noun, verb, adjective, subject, predicate… I’m lost. And, in the same way as slim people who have no need of the information, my natural ability with English leaves me unmotivated to spend much time studying and understanding the more complex reasons and details - why would I? It’s working for me, I think I’ll spend my time learning something I don’t know that I really need to know. Like why people get fat and how to control it, because that’s a big damn issue in my life. > [@](#): > > I don’t have to have added weight to my workout so I know how you feel. That’s on you. That’s not what I said, and not what I meant. You thought I would not want to use weights at first. I was pointing out that the extra weight I carry functions as “weights”. If a tall, strong, fit man weighs 225 pounds of solid muscle, his lifting his big heavy leg is not the same as a fat woman who weighs 225 pounds lifting her leg- fat is dead weight and hauling it around actually requires more strength than hauling around a thin body. > [@](#): > > As you said, food is fuel. You should eat more often to keep your hunger as far away as you can. Forget three meals a day. Eat ten tiny meals if you have to. Keep them around two hundred calories with a little protein each time You reject any possiblity that I know this, for some strange reason. But I know this. It’s excellent advice. It’s very hard for me to do for reasons that have to do with my relationship with food, and for reasons that have to do with how I operate in the world generally. But yes, I completely agree that grazing all day on healthy protein, fiber and a wide variety of vegetables is an excellent diet for anyone and particularly for anyone fighting obesity. It controls insulin levels, which is crucial. > [@](#): > > You’re very intelligent, \*\*Stoid. \*\*Very intelligent. Sometimes I get the impression that you use it to sabotage yourself with excuses and rationalization. I’ve absolutely done so… but on the other hand, being both very intelligent and very genuine makes it much more challenging to bullshit oneself. The people in my life have many times expressed to me in different ways how much they respect the degree to which I am self-aware. > [@](#): > > You just thought you’d run with this nonsense for what purpose I cannot imagine. Exactly the purpose you joked about: see what would happen. It would also give me a focus point that might be useful for me. Perhaps if I were to commit to the challenge I’d find it helpful. > [@](#): > > Instead of sitting here playing “GOTCHA!” with people about all of this, why not make a commitment to yourself and get healthy? Get regular sleep, eat food that is good for you in the right amount, move as much as you can in the state you’re in RIGHT NOW. You _will_ start to feel better and that will get the process rolling. “Just do it” is so profoundly unhelpful it stuns me. But it also shows the disconnect. Going back to me and using English properly…you saying this to me would be like me telling a 50 year old who had been using hideously bad English her whole life but finally learned the correct way to speak:Just talk right! It doesn’t acknowledge a lifetime of talking “wrong” and how that run some grooves into the brain, making it very difficult to change. And that’s just speaking, which is a relatively neutral matter, it’s not like the person who speaks bad English gets some payoff from it, jsut the reverse, so she’s probably 100% motivated to change. That isn’t true of most people when it comes to weight, it’s much more complicated and difficult… sure we want to be healthy…and we also want that ice cream. Of course we are very interested in feeling good and being more attractive, but we’re also very interested in doing something that feels good right this minute, not 6 months from now. The person who wants and needs to speak English properly has only a lifetime of habit to overcome, not a bunch of competing desires and motivations that directly conflict with her desire to speak better. And this is is also why reducing the discussion to being about absolutely nothing except “eat less exercise more” is pointless. If you’ve spent most of your life without a weight problem, then, as you age, you pick up ten pounds when you arn’t paying attention, “eat less, exercise more” might be all you really need. But for people who have battled serious weight problems for any significant period of time, it’s virtually meaningless because it’s far from being that simple. Which brings me back to how I acquired my command of the language: by the example of the parents who raised me. This is equally true of my lifelong relationship and habits with food. I was raised in a house where there was absolutely nothing unusual about preparing a pound of bacon to be eaten by one person all by themselves. My mother would decide she had to have guacamole, and that meant 8 avocados and two large bags of Doritos. She would consume this over the course of two days. Popcorn was a giant bowl and a whole stick of butter. My mother was fat, but she never got anywhere near as fat as I did. My dad was a fat kid, but he got it under control. Interestingly, I was a tall skinny little girl from age 1 to 6, which is when I was raised by my father, who was a stay at home dad in 1959-1964, while my mother worked. I dont’ remember my mother much at all during those years. Then they divorced (separated, really, the divorce was 25 years later…but they stopped living together) and I lived with my mother. This was both emotionally devastating for me (not like most kids, who are usually much tighter with their mothers so divorce sucks but they are still with Mom… for me it was way worse.) as well as putting me in the path of my mother’s eating habits. I was a quick study. By the time I was became an adult, after years of diets and weight watchers and starving alternating with making food the central focus of all things pleasant in life, my physical and emotional relationship with food was deeply ingrained. Telling me to eat less and exercise more is meaningless. But what’s interesting is that I don’t eat like I did when I was a kid, or like my mother did. I adore guacamole, for instance. But I don’t even WANT to do what my mother did. I’'ll make a little dish from a half an avocado or a whole if its small, and I’ll eat it with a handful of chips or on a couple of homemade tacos, and I’m completely and entirely satisfied. And I’m still far fatter than my mother ever was and far fatter than I ever was when I was gorging myself so much and so often that I thought it was normal to feel sick whenever it came time to use the bathroom, and it’s been many years since then. But if you met me you’d assume I pig out all the time. It just aint that simple, Sleeps. > [@](#): > > I say this with absolutely no snark intended: I get the impression that you are in need of a “life makeover” right now. Financially, emotionally, physically. I’m positive that has to be overwhelming as hell. I don’t know what kind of support system you have around you, but if you do not have people who are going to POSITIVELY encourage and support you then I cannot suggest Sparkpeople enough. You can surround yourself with like minded people who will motivate you. I have an excellent support system, top notch, and it’s humming. > [@](#): > > It’s all on you and that’s not a bad thing at all. It’s not BLAME, it’s knowing that YOU are empowered to change it. Nobody else. I agree with that entirely at all times about pretty much everything, even things that most people would never agree they have power over. I am not and have never been the sort to argue that fat people are suffering from some mysterious glandular problem. My argument is that fat people are not a bunch of lazy, weak disgusting self indulgent sloths who must enjoy being fat because if they weren’t they wouldn’t be - they are fat for very complex reasons that are not simple or easy to overcome, and judging them as being “less than” in any way at all is arrogant, rude, and profoundly ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/188 "2010-06-29T22:09:46Z")
> [@Gruntled](#): > > But wait. Just the other day you were blaming obesity on a claimed lack of availability of weight loss information. Now you’re saying that fat people DO know what they’re supposed to be doing, but just refuse to do it? What, what? 😕 Not me. Check again. ---
**Author:** ![Gruntled](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/34f0e0/32.png) [@Gruntled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gruntled)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/189 "2010-06-29T22:25:03Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > And you know this how? Because, like I said, these are people I personally KNOW. And I see what and how they eat. I’ve gone grocery shopping and to restaurants with them, been a guest at their house, hung out for the weekend with them. NOT ONE eats like the slim people do. The non-fat people consistently make healthy choices, and only occasionally have a fattening treat. The fat people I know do the exact opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/190 "2010-06-29T22:58:46Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > What if someone claimed that 33% of anorexics can’t gain weight by eating more food? > > I think what most of the naysayers in this thread are saying is that the difficult part of weight gain/loss is mental. What makes it so difficult is that people with unhealthy weight (either too much or not enough) play all sorts of mental games to convince themselves that it’s _ **not** _ mental but something else that is keeping them from a healthy weight. People who contend that “it’s complicated” or “it’s the medication” or “some people will still gain weight even if they eat nothing” are giving credence to the mental games. It’s something in between, actually. The very fact of being overweight at all, then dieting, CREATES more problems physically, making it increasingly difficult to lose weight, increasingly easy to gain it and hold it, and increasingly painful to fight with. Please read Dseid’s posts and links. Fat people get defensive about their eating because people are so fucking shitty to them about it. (And rarely is it about the eating itself, it’s about the eating when you’re fat, because I only have two fat people in my life but I have LOTS of people in my life who can and do stuff their faces with crap.) Here’s a newsflash: Shame is SHIT means for motivating anything POSITIVE. Making people feel like shit about themselves encourages them to treat themselves shabbily, lose confidence in themselves, and often makes them want to give up entirely. So if anyone claims they have the slightest interest of ANY kind in HELPING ANYONE with a weight issue, you have to stop acting, speaking, and if you can, feeling judgmental towards them. Start nurturing your compassionate and supportive side. Try helping the fat people believe in themselves, care about themselves, \*whether they are fat or not. \* Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/191 "2010-06-29T23:21:58Z")
> [@Gruntled](#): > > Because, like I said, these are people I personally KNOW. Question: how many anecdotes does it take to produce data? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/192 "2010-06-29T23:28:06Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Question: how many anecdotes does it take to produce data? 3 or more when they _support_ your opinion, 500+ when they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/193 "2010-06-29T23:39:38Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 3 or more when they _support_ your opinion, 500+ when they don’t. Sic transit SDMB, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/194 "2010-06-30T00:06:47Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > You have to continue doing the thing that’s killing you (whether in the short term or the long term), but in a healthy way. It’s as if you could live by taking poison, just so long as you took the right amount of poison. This is the critical divide between food addiction and all other addictions, and it is absolutely HUGE. [COLOR=“Black”]HUGE[/COLOR] Ask any sober alcoholic: could you stay sober if you were required, in order to go on living, to have two or three small drinks every day, 8 hours apart? I guarantee that every single alcoholic will tell you that it would be completely impossible. They might last a day, or a week, or maybe even a month or two… but sooner or later, they’d be in the gutter. Food addiction is more powerful than alcoholism by several orders of magnitude, because it stems from the most powerful drive we ALL have: the drive to eat. So take the most powerful drive we are born with and then: 1.Fuck it all up with emotions and memories and relationships and self-worth and pleasure. 2.Live in a world that bombards you with food from morning until night. 1. Make sure that food, particularly very delicious, high fat high calorie food, is the central feature of pretty much every type of fun or gathering that people indulge in. 2. Deprive yourself of it, or sufficient amounts of it, for long periods of time, fucking up your body’s normal mechanisms for regulating your weight, and stepping up that drive in a very real chemical and biological way, not only sending you signals to eat more, but also altering your chemistry so that you are even better at storing your calories for later use. 3. Having become fat, find you are ridiculed and rejected by society, resulting in loneliness, stress and depression, which you seek comfort for, and because you’re you, “comfort” feels like some nice ice cream. 4. Being fat, find that your otherwise natural desire for activity is reduced, along with the fact that being active makes you hot and uncomfortable, and embarrassed if you are engaging in activities with other people, and it messes up your balance and strength, making it really unpleasant and difficult to get a healthy amount of exercise. This contributes to your overall stress and depression, which drives you to seek some pleasure from SOMETHING, and well, when all else fails some nice buttered pancakes sure are pleasurable. 5. When you feel like hell in every possible way and realize you have to lose some weight or die in the attempt, you decide that starting now, you are going to recover from your addiction, and from now on you are going to eat times a day and your meals will be something like a slice of white turkey, a small apple, and a handful of edemame. Every day. For the rest of your life. (that’s 255 calories per meal x 6 meals = 1530 calories for the day, which is probably more than you’re burning already if you’re really fat and inactive.) Then, if you happen to be me and lots of other people who are like me, suffer from a very real problem with impulse control that exists completely apart and outside any of your problems with food and weight. And then expect people to “just” eat less and move more, what’s the big deal? While brimming with sympathy for people who are alcoholics, junkies, gamblers, or suffer from the less permanently disfiguring eating disorders of bulimia or anorexia. Because all those things are so hard. But fat people are just weak pigs. As anyone who has fasted will tell you, it’s much easier to stop eating altogether. But of course, people who fast have rebound weight gain that’s so immediate and powerful you’d think their bodyweight was bouncing off some kind of metabolic trampoline. So, rather than being “ok” because fat people “can do something about it”, I think the attitude and dismissiveness directed at people with weight problems is particularly unjustified. And I think it stems from three things: 1. People who have no weight or food issues to speak of who are simply completely lacking in the ability to imagine people having experiences different from their own. It’s a common affliction that cuts across subjects, kinda like the Bobby situation from earlier: _I_ don’t find walking to school difficult or unpleasant, therefore neither should Bobby! But of course, as I suggested, maybe Bobby is a different human being altogether and my experience is not the measure for Bobby’s. 2. People who DO have weight / food issues, but they do manage to do what’s necessary to keep their weight under control, and it takes effort that is definitely felt who, like Crafter Man, have concluded that since THEY have overcome THEIR issues through the degree of difficulty required for THEM to do so, anyone who has not yet done so is just weak and therefore contemptible. And of course, deep down inside, there’s also a smudge of irrational envy over what they perceive, in what is probably an entirely unconscious way, to be the fat person’s ability to shrug off the world’s expectations and indulge their desire. and of course, 1. People who are fundamentally disgusted by fat on a purely visceral level. They recoil from from it and therefore from the people who are fat. They want to reject it openly and express their disgust. These feelings about fat itself extend to the fat person, who simply must be fundamentally disgusting and unworthy in some important way to have allow the situation to develop, therefore it’s entirely ok to slam them. #3 is really always part of the picture with either #1 or #2, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/195 "2010-06-30T00:10:10Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Question: how many anecdotes does it take to produce data? I don’t know Gruntled from Adam OR Eve, but I will bet that one of two things is true: 1. Gruntled barely knows any fat people at all. and certainly none that he/she selected to be friends with. 2. Gruntled is surrounded by fat people, almost certainly has a very fat family. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/196 "2010-06-30T00:48:54Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I never said it was weakness or anything else. All I said is that the statement proposed in the OP is categorically false, because it is. It is false because of the way it is phrased. Other, rather similar statements, about weight loss could be true. But as stated it is false. The question in the OP was “is this statement true or false?” The only answer to that question is: the statement is false. Sorry if the way I phrased my post implied that you were saying that. I merely was pointing out that the discussion in this thread has featured some took the op as yet another opportunity to jump up and down proclaiming just that - that the obese “won’t” lose weight, not “can’t”, because they choose not to; that “surgery is for the weak”; that the obese just “rationalize”; and soon the fat haters jumped in with the overt insults of “weak assed fatties” etc. As to the bit about the actual ad, well, we don’t really know what the ad said, we only have the op’s recollection of it, which in the body of the op went like this: > [@](#): > > The claim was that for 1/3 of severely overweight people, no amount of dieting is ever going to help them. And that statement is at least somewhat true, depending on how you define “help” the morbidly obese. At least a third will never solve their obesity problem by dieting. And surgery OTOH will result in weight loss that is very often long lasting, and is associated with improvements in diabetes control that exceed that obtained by weight loss achieved by dieting alone. Of course healthier eating habits and exercise will really still help the obese in a variety of other ways even if they do not solve their obesity in any significant way. Now of course as phrased in the _title_ - “can never lose weight by dieting” - that is, taken as a literal statement, false. Agreed. As we do not have copy of the actual ad, just two slightly different reported memories of what was said on the radio, debating whether its actual claim is truthful or not is a bit silly. We agree on the facts I think. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/197 "2010-06-30T01:44:48Z")
I’m not sure if [this WebMD article](http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/123702-overview) is behind a wall or not, but some here may find it edifying. > [@](#): > > The adipocyte, which is the cellular basis for obesity, is increasingly found to be a complex and metabolically active cell. At present, the adipocyte is being perceived as an endocrine gland with several peptides and metabolites that may be relevant to the control of body weight, and these are being studied intensively. … The pathogenesis of obesity is far more complex than the simple paradigm of an imbalance between energy intake and energy output. Although this concept allows easy conceptualization of the various mechanisms involved in the development of obesity, obesity is far more than the mere result of too much eating and/or too little exercise. … Two major groups of factors with a balance that variably intertwines in the development of obesity are genetics, which is presumed to explain 40-70% of the variance in obesity, and environmental factors. … Although obesity in itself is associated with increased morbidity and mortality, massive poorly monitored weight loss and/or weight cycling can have equally dire consequences. … > > … Results of most weight loss management programs are dismal. On average, participants in the best weight-loss programs lose approximately 10% of their body weight, but people generally regain two thirds of the weight lost within a year, and they regain almost all of it within 5 years. > > When defined as sustained weight loss over a 5-year follow-up period, the success of even the best medical weight-loss programs is next to nil. Most available data indicate that, irrespective of the method of medical intervention, 90-95% of the weight lost is regained in 5 years. > > In general, body weight and body fat generally tenaciously regulated. Available data suggest that a loss of approximately 10% of body weight in subjects who are obese (BMI \<40) is associated with virtually maximal benefits regarding obesity-elated comorbidities; therefore, further attempts at weight loss beyond this level are generally spurred by cosmetic considerations that may be not only unrealistic but also potentially dangerous. This possibility is the basis of a shift in paradigms in the medical management of obesity from a goal of massive weight loss to a goal of maintaining the highest weight possible while still eliminating obesity-related comorbidities or reducing them to minimum. … > > … Low-calorie diets involve a caloric intake of 800-1200 kcal/d and are associated with a mean weight loss of 0.4-0.5 kg/wk, with a total loss of 6-8 kg in ideal settings. With any low-calorie diet, maintaining intake of protein with high biologic value of \>1 g/kg is vital to preserve lean body mass. Major potential complications to watch for include vitamin deficiency, starvation ketosis, electrolyte derangements, and cholelithiasis. Although these diets are useful for short-term weight loss, none alone is associated with reliable, sustained weight loss. > > Normal-calorie diets involve diets with a caloric intake greater than 1200 kcal/d. The aim with this type of diet is to reduce the caloric intake by 500-1000 kcal/d from the patient’s current dietary intake. The suggested composition for the best-validated dietary programs are protein intake of 0.8-1.5 g/kg of body weight (not to exceed 100 g/d), 10-30% of total calories from fat (preferably \>90% as polyunsaturated fat and \<10% as saturated fat), carbohydrate intake of \>50 g/d, and water intake of \>1 L. Ensure that the dietary plan provides adequate micronutrients and macronutrients based on RDAs. … > > … Surgical therapy for obesity (bariatric surgery) is the only available therapeutic modality associated with clinically significant and sustained weight loss in subjects with morbid obesity associated with comorbidities. Evidence shows that well-performed bariatric surgery in carefully selected patients and a good multidisciplinary support team substantially ameliorates the morbidities associated with severe obesity. Although bariatric surgery is the only therapeutic method associated with consistently demonstrable sustained weight loss, it is expensive, highly procedure and surgeon specific, and certainly not the solution for the burgeoning obesity epidemic. … > > … Because of the sheer prevalence of obesity and the anticipated worsening of the pandemic in the next few decades, prevention is by far the most desirable means to curb the consequences and economic load of obesity. On the optimistic side is the fact referenced in [this article](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/724358) that looked to see if an intervention program in Middle School could decrease obesity and diabetes risk factors. Intervention schools had substantial improvement but only modestly more than schools without intervention. Nationally, overall, the rate of childhood obesity may be turning the corner. > [@](#): > > the falling overweight/obesity rates at schools with and without the intervention program are consistent with national-level trends observed in other analyses that suggest that “rates of obesity in high-risk children in sixth to eighth grade appear not to be steady or increasing but actually appear to be declining.” I’m in the business I am in, Pediatrics, because I believe that the time to affect long term health changes is _before_ they are entrenched, or even evident. Some kids are at huge risk of both severe obesity and of its complications. We pediatricians need to do a better job at identifying them and intervening effectively. The problem is that pediatricians are people too, and our numbers include many who hold the same ignorant stereotypes and take the same blaming tone that many others take. The family centered behavioral group interventions that we now know are effective for treatment in Middle School aged kids and above are neither widely available or often covered by insurance. And there are not even studies out yet documenting its efficacy (or lack thereof, we don’t know) in those who are in the early grades, or even preschool, who are showing [the early adiposity rebound](http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v30/n4s/full/0803514a.html) that marks the [“thrifty phenotype”](http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowAbstract&ProduktNr=224036&Ausgabe=231708&ArtikelNr=91512) and its long term risks. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/198 "2010-06-30T06:31:26Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > That’s not what I said, and not what I meant. You thought I would not want to use weights at first. I was pointing out that the extra weight I carry functions as “weights”. If a tall, strong, fit man weighs 225 pounds of solid muscle, his lifting his big heavy leg is not the same as a fat woman who weighs 225 pounds lifting her leg- fat is dead weight and hauling it around actually requires more strength than hauling around a thin body. **Stoid** , what the hell is this supposed to mean? That when you exercise, you don’t need “weights”, because the fact that you are heavy counts as “weights?” Or am I totally out of left field? 😕 ETA: cool site, **Sleeps**. Some of those recipes look delicious. I saw lots of ones with hummus. Mmmm…hummus. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/199 "2010-06-30T08:02:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Stoid** , what the hell is this supposed to mean? That when you exercise, you don’t need “weights”, because the fact that you are heavy counts as “weights?” Or am I totally out of left field? It means what it says. Our legs make up 30-40 percent of our total body weight. If I weighed 150 pounds, lifting one of my legs would mean lifting 24-28 pounds. But on exactly the same frame I am carrying 250 pounds, which means I’m lifting a leg that has something like 20 extra pounds of flesh on it. (In my own case probably more because I have extremely big legs, most of my fat is below my waist in my ass and legs) It is disproportionately heavy, because _I_ am disproportionately heavy - just because it’s actually part of my body doesn’t mean that my muscles and bones are somehow magically immune to the effect of it, quite the [opposite](http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(04)00153-4/abstract), since high BMI (body mass indix…fat) means low risk of osteoporosis. Why? Because being me is a 24/7 “weight bearing exercise” that increases the density of my bones. So depending on what kind of exercise I’m doing, no, I don’t need to add weight until I’ve become strong enough to need to increase beyond the weight I’m already dealing with. IN an exercise like the one Sleeps was talking about, this is more true than most, since she picks up a couple of dumbells to do walking lunges. It would be ridiculous for me to pick up 16 pounds of dumbbells to do walking lunges when I’m carrying a hundred excess pounds out the gate. In fact, it would be ridiculous for me to do walking lunges, BECAUSE I’m a hundred pounds overweight AND I’m 52 years old, AND I’m not in the best shape (I’ve been in far better at this weight, I’m just not now) AND I have very loosy-goosy, badly aligned ankle, knee and hip joints by nature, so stressing my knees like that would be insanely stupid and guarantees injury. I am much better off doing more tightly controlled resistance exercises that isolate muscles and provide good stability. For bigger all-body type moves, brisk walking while consciously maintaining good posture is a better, healthier, safer bet. When I want to really build muscles I’ll get on my weight machine and do it piece by piece. Actually, my loosy-goosey tendons are a real problem and I need to do regular physical therapy-style isolation training to stabilize and align my legs, which will reduce the danger of injury. Anyway… I promised my sister I would take a 7 day vacation from the straight dope so I can focus on finishing some stuff that has deadlines on it. So I won’t be back for a week. (Assuming I can control my impulses… ) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391/200 "2010-06-30T09:50:28Z")
> [@Gruntled](#): > > Anorexics know perfectly well that they are starving themselves. They most certainly do NOT think that eating one piece of toast per day is healthy. But they do it anyway because their body image is distorted - they think they are fat when in fact they are skeletally thin. > > Fatties, OTOH, know perfectly well that they are eating too much, but either lie about it or are in denial. Nope, both the anorexics and many “fatties” are sure that the way they eat is perfectly healthy. My classmate whose period hadn’t arrived at 17 and whose medical problem got solved by eating more than one piece of toast and two small salads a day (including getting some protein of animal origin) was absolutely convinced that this food was healthy: it was what her mother had always fed them! My mother is convinced that the way she eats is perfectly healthy - why, she gets lots of fruits and vegetables! The notion that the overcooking and white sauce manages to move those vegetables from the “healthy” to the “unhealthy” columns doesn’t get through. Then again, she gets bombarded with a lot more messages to “eat more vegetables” than to “cut down on the white sauce”; it’s logical, because institutional messages need to be adressed to that majority who does not eat enough veggies and not to the minority who puts white sauce on veggies, but still, in her case it’s the wrong message. ETA: you know, I just realized that the message says to “eat more”. More veggies, yes, but it doesn’t say that you should eat less of other things in exchange. May be leading some people to do like that lady who thought that Slim Fast would slim you down if you had it in addition to your regular meals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-3-of-overweight-people-can-never-lose-weight-by-dieting-t-f/544391.md?page=11)