# 1/6/21 insurrection post mortem: How did it happen? What could/should have been done? What should be the response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915 "2021-01-07T14:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/121 "2021-01-08T15:02:10Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This was posted in the Coup thread. > > [# Some among America’s military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup and may have had help from federal law-enforcement officials](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1) While I have no doubt Trump would have loved a coup, what’s the evidence that he got help from anyone competent? I mean, that was one half assed little insurrection. A bunch of people in ridiculous costumes milled around the Capitol. They stole souvenirs and ran away. They failed to actually accomplish anything else, like capture anyone or set up a permanent occupation of the building. University protest sit-ins are better planned. If in fact Capitol police authorities were in on it, why were the legislators and staff successfully moved away from danger and protected by… Capitol police? Literally everything about this fiasco looks like an angry mob, incited by an idiot, blowing up. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, if you are injured or killed while trying to assault the Capitol, then that’s the price you pay. I take no pleasure in the death of the lady shot inside the Capitol, but I would say one person being shot was a hell of a lot of restraint. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/122 "2021-01-08T15:14:46Z")
To add some global perspective on the actions of the Capitol police, imagine this happening at the Kremlin. The only question about the response from Russian Kremlin guards would be, do they give any verbal warnings first, or just open fire on the insurrectionists? ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/123 "2021-01-08T15:22:53Z")
If the mob was protesting Putin’s election loss? Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/124 "2021-01-08T15:33:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > When I first heard about the insurrectionists storming the Capitol, I didn’t think much of it. I mean, it’s a big, heavy, stone building, with thick, sturdy doors, and I assume strong locks. How are they going to get in? My thinking as well. I’ve spent my share of time in fed bldgs. Those big metal doors LOOK fancy, but if you really look, you realize how substantial they are. Read in the paper this a.m. that capitol police declined Natl Gd offer of assistance days before the event, and FBI offer while the crowd was heading to the capitol. “No thanks. We’ve got this!” Also said several people were quitting/being fired - I believe the house Sgt at Arms was fired and Senate’s would be, and Capitol Police chief would be. An astounding cockup. As much as I want to dump this all on Trump, I do have to wonder what sort of oversight the members of Congress had over the security of their bldg. Didn’t the most scaredy cat liberal Congresscritter say, “These maga folk are SCARY! Are we going to be safe?” At the very least, I would not have been surptised to hear Dems claiming fears ahead of time (which I would have suspected unfounded) for political gain. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/125 "2021-01-08T15:40:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > They failed to actually accomplish anything else, like capture anyone or set up a permanent occupation of the building. Only because the security _within_ the chambers took it seriously. If they had been as lax as the security outside, they’d probably still be in there, with a couple dozen democratic representatives as hostages, demanding that Trump be allowed to continue presidenting. > [@RickJay](#): > > If in fact Capitol police authorities were in on it, why were the legislators and staff successfully moved away from danger and protected by… Capitol police? Are those charged with protecting the exterior of the building and those charged with protecting the interior of the chambers under the same chain of command? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/126 "2021-01-08T15:41:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > While I have no doubt Trump would have loved a coup, what’s the evidence that he got help from anyone competent? The issue is not one of competence. Trump himself is a blustering incompetent, anyone still following him at this point is just so incredibly gullible. I don’t think anybody is claiming that there was some strategic mastermind involved at any level here, except perhaps a plan to create chaos. But I think what makes this so serious and requires that it be classified as sedition - as a coup attempt - is the fact that law enforcement & other security services including the National Guard were at the very least hobbled by Trump’s influence, and pro-Trump elements in law enforcement probably at some level colluded in this. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/127 "2021-01-08T16:06:24Z")
I agree with your assessment that this was a half-assed stunt and not a serious, well-organised coup attempt. My guess is that it actually succeeded far better than the organisers had anticipated. However, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t meant to cause some damage, and that it wasn’t seriously dangerous. Four protestors dead, presumably dozens injured, one police officer dead, and fourteen police officers injured - that’s pretty substantial. Also, as noted by the account of the woman who was shot, the protestors who invaded the Capitol were one door away from being able to confront armed (Secret Service?) guards and possibly capture Congressmen. Instead of one dead woman, there could have been a bloodbath and Congressmen as hostage. Even if the Capitol Police thought an invasion was a highly unlikely event, the cost of a successful invasion was so high that they should have been read for that circumstance. There’s no possible excuse for being so utterly unprepared. Having said that, I can’t figure out a legitimate basis why anyone in a position of power in the Capitol Police would conspire to allow the invasion to take place. They had to know they’d be throwing away their jobs and their reputation. The more effective the incursion, the worse off they’d be. And that’s assuming the conspiracy wasn’t found out. What’s the upside that they would take such a risk - devotedness to Trump? Incompetence and terrible risk assessment I can believe. Outright treason with severe consequences for a questionable outcome that relies on some seriously unreliable and unstable co-conspirators? Doesn’t seem remotely plausible. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/128 "2021-01-08T16:15:34Z")
you might read this story about a man named Judas - thought he needed to do something to get the right guy to step up. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/129 "2021-01-08T16:39:57Z")
Yeah, I think that’s basically what I’m saying, K9. I don’t know if I would say that the police are stupider than gravel; rather, I think what we have seen from the Capitol Police is the same thing we’ve seen over and over and over again in police department after police department, and from institutions generally. Police are a white institution, like most governmental and public institutions across this country. Police inherently have a much higher degree of trust in white people, and in particular white conservatives, than in non-whites and/or white liberals. Most of your cops are themselves whites who come from a working class, socially conservative background. Indeed, police everywhere on the planet tend to have an authoritarian psychological orientation, so pretty much everywhere you go on this earth, police officers are more likely to be people who naturally try to enforce rules, who are more interested in regulating the behavior of other people than your average person. Some just need a paycheck, but more often than not, police officers identify with like minded people, and it’s no secret that Trumpists are themselves authoritarians and traditionalists, and most likely, from a similar cultural background. So my take is, back in the summer, when the BLM protests were going on, were first of all inherently put off by the message, which is pretty predictable. People in power don’t like being criticized, right? In this case, the police officers themselves have become the subject of a movement that challenges their long-held authority and charges that they have abused their public trust, and have therefore lost their trustworthiness – nobody likes hearing that message, even if they acknowledge it’s true (which they do not of course). But there’s naturally some degree of bias that officers held coming into that situation. Worse yet, the _political leaders_ (i.e. the Trump administration) who direct policies and are responsible for oversight of their conduct were also criticized. Consequently, Trump and his minions had an incentive to incite the police to approach the situation in a political manner. Moreover, it is no secret that Trump has romanticized old school roughhousing that these police departments have been criticized for, and Trump very much wanted police to express their appreciation for his loyalty, which they probably did in their own way in some cases. So there’s that – that explains why they had such a police presence back in the summer. The cultural distance between them and the protesters inevitably created a gap in trust. Moreover, because the police didn’t like the message, they were motivated to demonstrate their authority to their critics. I’m not saying it’s right, but that’s what it was. By contrast, in dealing with the insurrectionists, these police officers probably thought that they could trust their fellow white man “not to go too far,” which is why they gave them more latitude than they gave BLM and other protesters. Unfortunately for them, they got burned; they quickly found out that they shouldn’t have trusted them. They completely misjudged the situation, with the caveat that it is possible that some individual police officers might have in fact secretly been part of this whole QAnon thing and acted in concert with the mob. I concede that some individuals within the department could be radicalized, but I think the department as a whole, particularly the leadership, simply thought _“Meh, just angry white guys (like me). I mean, they might beat up some n\*\*\*\*\*s and some punk snowflakes, \ But they wouldn’t do anything outrageous like storm the Capitol.”_ ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/130 "2021-01-08T16:49:47Z")
I tend to agree with everything you said, but – in addition – absolutely can’t exclude the idea that the direction given to law enforcement, around this ‘event,’ (and coming from the WH, either directly or indirectly), **was** exactly the message you outlined, and that it simply found a willing audience predisposed to believe, accept, and acknowledge what they were told. Meaning: I don’t doubt at all that Trump or one of his direct reports basically issued the ‘stand down and stand by – these are **our** people’ command. And that command was followed with virtually no resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/131 "2021-01-08T16:59:06Z")
First off, anyone who thinks this was unpredictable was not paying attention. Washington’s mayor knew what was coming and asked for support from the National Guard. This was vetoed by individual 1. I am not sure what actually happened next. Apparently, the DOD can legally activate the National Guard on its own initiative. But can they do when their CIC has said no? At any rate, later on the DOD did consult with Pence and finally decide to send in the troops. But the mayor knew what could happen and ask for backup. When it did happen, finally the backup came, too late to do much. Now what about the capitol police? Apparently, a different outfit from the Metro Washington police and entirely under the control of congress. I imagine that if the protesters had been BLM people, they would have been out in force with tear gas, rubber bullets, firehoses, all their weapons drawn. And I was watching on TV and from my perspective, it looked like the police just opened the gates and abandoned their posts. “Go to it.” Obviously, Trump inspired it. But those idiot congressmen who had no authority to do what they were attempting are also guilty. The only time they have _ **any** _ authority to do anything but count the ballots is when a state has sent more than one slate of electors to congress. There is nothing in any statute and certainly not in the constitution, that gives them any other right or duty. True, they didn’t expect to prevail, but even the point they were making is illegal and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/132 "2021-01-08T17:03:54Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Now what about the capitol police? Apparently, a different outfit from the Metro Washington police and entirely under the control of congress. Yeah, Capitol Police are feds and receive some training alongside the Secret Service. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/133 "2021-01-08T17:08:10Z")
For “hostages” in posts above, consider “assassinations,” based on the stated intentions of the traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/134 "2021-01-08T17:14:52Z")
Law enforcement took a lot of (deserved) heat for that response. Isn’t it a good sign that they didn’t respond like that again? For one of the few times I’m with asahi on this. The CP screwed up and underestimated the threat. There is also shades of racism in their (non-) response. But I do think it’s in the normal range of human screw-ups. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/135 "2021-01-08T17:26:11Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > All that said, I think that storming the capital is a torpedo into the gut of the Republican party. The unholy coalition that Trump held together between the QAnon, moral majority, po white trash, traditional Republicans, ad nausea is splintering. I beg to differ, because, as I’ve heard multiple times on various call-in shows, _ **“We don’t know who those people really were. After it’s all investigated, we’ll know for sure that Antifa/BLM planted violent agitators in the crowd.”** _ ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/136 "2021-01-08T17:31:05Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Washington’s mayor knew what was coming and asked for support from the National Guard. This was vetoed by individual 1. I am not sure what actually happened next. Apparently, the DOD can legally activate the National Guard on its own initiative. Chicago Trib this morning has AP article stating: 3 days ago “the Pentagon asked the US Capitol Police if it needed NG manpower. … The police turned them down…” It later says Mayor Bowser requested NG assistance 1/31, but the capitol police turned fown the 1/3 offer from the Defense Dept. I’m unclear as to the exact requirements for NG involvement, but if an offer was made but rejected, that’s some serious evidence of incompetence - and I could imagine non-insane people suspecting something more nefarious. It CERTAINLY belies the claim that NO ONE coulda seen any chance of trouble… ON EDIT [Pentagon Hindered DC National Guard Response to Insurrection Attempt: Report](https://www.businessinsider.com/pentagon-hindered-dc-national-guard-response-to-insurrection-attempt-report-2021-1?utm_source=reddit.com) This source suggests NG was hamstrung. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/137 "2021-01-08T17:38:55Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Isn’t it a good sign that they didn’t respond like that again? I don’t think so. That was how the protected property, that was how the protected specifically the Lincoln memorial against black protesters. This was different, this was protecting people, this was protecting the peaceful transition of power. This truly is a game of playing the excluded middle, and it’s annoying enough in a debate, but much more dangerous when we are talking about policing. If that was really their reason, then they are passive aggressive cry babies who have no business having anything to do with law enforcement, and need to go home and suck a pacifier. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/138 "2021-01-08T17:40:10Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > “We don’t know who those people really were. After it’s all investigated, we’ll know for sure that Antifa/BLM planted violent agitators in the crowd.” “After all, we planted violent agitators in _their_ crowds!” ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/139 "2021-01-08T17:40:12Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Is the law under which the Chicago 8 were tried still on the books. Yes, Title X of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 called [The Anti-Riot Act](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2101) is still on the books. It reads in part [quote] > (a) Whoever travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses any facility of interstate or foreign commerce, including, but not limited to, the mail, telegraph, telephone, radio, or television, with intent— > (1) to incite a riot; or > (2) to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or > (3) to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or > (4) to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; > and who either during the course of any such travel or use or thereafter performs or attempts to perform any other overt act for any purpose specified in subparagraph ( A ), ( B ), ( C ), or ( D ) of this paragraph—Shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/140 "2021-01-08T18:05:17Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > You’re afraid of the optics of a line of jackbooted thugs facing off with a crowd of _ **peaceful** _ [emphasis added] protestors? Fine! Make your first line a simple yellow tape fifty yards out from the Capitol manned by Officer Dooley tipping his hat to the crowd and saying, “Fine day to exercise your first amendment rights, ain’t it? Just make sure to stay back from that tape now.” That’s right, peaceful protesters should be met with jackboots, while protesters who have been threatening violence for weeks should be handled with kid gloves. The mayor of DC asked for National Guard support the previous day, but was apparently refused. The capitol police apparently prepared for a Sunday school picnic. And I found this (from what I suppose is an MD radio station): > **[Hogan: Federal approval to send National Guard during Capitol attack delayed...](https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/01/hogan-federal-approval-to-send-national-guard-during-capitol-attack-delayed/)** > > Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan on Thursday said he was “repeatedly denied approval” to send troops from the Maryland National Guard to restore peace during the attack on the Capitol Wednesday. > Gov. Larry Hogan on Thursday said that he tried to send troops from the Maryland National Guard to restore peace at the U.S. Capitol during the attack by supporters of President Donald Trump, but was “repeatedly denied approval to do so” for about an hour and a half. So police are fine with white supremacists but scared to death by BLM peaceful protesters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915.md?page=8)