# 1/6/21 insurrection post mortem: How did it happen? What could/should have been done? What should be the response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915 "2021-01-07T14:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/141 "2021-01-08T19:13:59Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > I’m seeing so many crybaby postings on social media about how law enforcement were in a, “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. “You guys tore us apart about having a disproportionate response to BLM and at the St. John’s plaza protest, what are we supposed to do?” Ah, I was wondering what the next lying “blame the Democrats/liberals” deflection was going to be. First (not that I think this chronological sequence is particularly precise, but it’s the order I’ve seen), we had “It was secret antifa infiltrators who actually did all the bad stuff!” Then we had “The Democrats/liberals made it happen by infecting the general populace with their flagrant contempt for law and order!” Now it’s “The Democrats/liberals emasculated our law-and-order propensities by demanding that BLM rioters and looters be handled with kid gloves!” Interestingly, so far I have not seen the classic standbys of “Now is not the time to politicize a tragedy whose victims require our compassionate thoughts and prayers” and “It’s disgraceful how the Democrats/liberals are trying to make political capital out of this tragedy with their finger-pointing blame games”. Are those responses actually in abeyance so far, or has anyone spotted instances of them that I just haven’t noticed? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/142 "2021-01-08T19:29:51Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > Suppose that mob had actually caught Pelosi and Harris? > > This could have easily escalated into an extremely serious national security and hostage situation – something we’ll probably forget but shouldn’t. Or they might have killed them; either on purpose, or intending to beat them and misjudging force. > [@asahi](#): > > In the US Senate, the last I checked, Loeffler and Perdue still haven’t conceded. Loeffler has. (If Perdue has I haven’t seen it.) [https://thehill.com/homenews/news/533261-loeffler-concedes-to-warnock](https://thehill.com/homenews/news/533261-loeffler-concedes-to-warnock) > [@asahi](#): > > I think the Capitol Police planned on _some_ violence, but that it would be largely confined to clashes between Proud Boys/QAnon and counter-protesters outside the building. And yes, I think that Cap Police and other agencies were perfectly fine with letting right wing protesters beat the shit out of a counter-protesters that they would have outnumbered - I think that was very much their idea. There may have been some hoping for enough such battles, in enough states, that they thought Trump could declare martial law and somehow use that to stay in power. > [@asahi](#): > > I still don’t think that the Capitol Police really, truly envisioned a takeover of the House and Senate. For one thing, they’d have to know that doing so put their own lives in danger. I don’t think the ones who were on duty were the ones who made the decisions. I think they were being hung out to dry by the ones who made the decisions. > [@ouryL](#): > > I expected them to open the doors, otherwise we would be report a story where dozens, if not a couple of hundred were injured. “Otherwise”?? Dozens, at least, were in fact injured. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a couple of hundred. Over 50 among the police officers alone were injured. > **[More than 50 police officers were hurt at pro-Trump riot at the Capitol that...](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/07/four-dead-after-pro-trump-rioters-storm-capitol.html)** > > More than an hour after the rioting began, Trump urged his supporters to remain peaceful, asserting that "WE are the Party of Law & Order." A sufficient show of force put in place before the mob got there might well have prevented the whole thing from happening. > [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > I agree with your assessment that this was a half-assed stunt and not a serious, well-organised coup attempt. > [. . .] > I can’t figure out a legitimate basis why anyone in a position of power in the Capitol Police would conspire to allow the invasion to take place. They had to know they’d be throwing away their jobs and their reputation. Oh, it wasn’t well-organized. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a coup attempt. Bear in mind that a significant percentage of these people really, genuinely believe that almost everyone in the country, police and otherwise, agrees with them. If that were true, then the first people who throw the tea in the harbor, or fire at the redcoats, wouldn’t find themselves being condemned and quite possibly prosecuted. They’d find nearly everybody rallying behind them once things got well started. Is that, currently, nonsense? Yup. Doesn’t mean that people who’ve been lied to for years don’t believe it. (And Trump, himself, believes whatever he feels like believing at the moment. Sense or nonsense has nothing to do with it.) – I’m not saying that everybody involved in this screwup intended to assist a coup; some of them were probably genuinely persuaded that people yelling about law’n’order would follow the law. That requires a level of self-delusion nearly as great as believing that most of the country would join in, or at least not hamper, an uprising to keep Trump in office; but again, there have been a whole lot of lies being promulgated for a long time now. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/143 "2021-01-09T01:42:51Z")
Its sobering (and scary) to consider that China, which now has a face database of nearly 100% of its citizens, has the capability to ID everyone in their crowds and send them a ticket or summons automatically. It’s also interesting to note that the “protesters” were shooed out of the building without much ado. “Go home, get outa here!” Compare this to a bank robbery – do the police just round up the robbers, show them the door and tell them to have a nice day? I would propose putting all trespassers in a truck and sort them out individually before release. Much easier than pleading to the internet for their names and addresses after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/144 "2021-01-09T02:17:21Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I would propose putting all trespassers in a truck and sort them out individually before release. I think the problem may have been that among the things missing in advance preparations were enough trucks to put them into. They’re finding them. They’ll find most of them. (Who I’m afraid they won’t find is somebody who came in with the crowd, did not steal any laptops which is such an immediately obvious thing to do, did not take any hardcopy information which might have been missed, did not look at any files that inspectors could see had been opened, did not leave any additional drives attached to computers, but did stick something into a computer and then take it away again, leaving behind all sorts of trouble under instructions to hide itself until after Congress thinks it’s all clear. But that person, if they existed, isn’t posting on social media, probably doesn’t look like they did on the scene, and was probably long gone again before the police finally showed up in enough force to have potentially arrested anybody.) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/145 "2021-01-09T03:47:37Z")
Which means that 90% of the trespassers who violated one of our most sacred institutions in a criminal context will escape responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/146 "2021-01-09T15:59:29Z")
I disagree, they had ONE job, that is the entire reason for the existance of that particular Police force - they screwed it and this is not in the normal range of human screwups - it is what they are tasked with doing, it is what they are paid to do - they had ONE job. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/147 "2021-01-09T16:06:48Z")
My thinking is that there were likely 2 groups of rioters. The hardcore folk who wanted violence, and a likely greater number of easily influenced schmucks who got caught up in the moment and went along for the ride. I’m thinking that the hardcore folk have to be identified and punished the most severely, to take these bad actors out of action. By doing so, a message will be sent to the second sort of folk that this is serious shit they are associating with - not just harmless, no risk posturing. Maybe that’s just my way of making peace w/ the idea that hundreds of people who knowingly acted illegally in a serious manner will escape direct punishment. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/148 "2021-01-09T16:15:33Z")
My feeling is, it’s too late for that; they’ve already done something that merits punishment, so treat them accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/149 "2021-01-09T16:19:47Z")
My brother participated in many BLM marches and shared pictures/video of the events. His fellow protesters were mostly masked and sad (many in tears, weeping). The group was heterogeneous wrt age, sex, and race. Yet the police seemed to be afraid and filled with hatred toward the protesters. When he shared his pictures and videos with his previous employer (he’d just retired) they made a donation to BLM. Compare that with what happened on January sixth. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/150 "2021-01-09T16:27:14Z")
I don’t know why anybody is surprised that cops confronting protestors specifically protesting against cops would be more aggressive than when confronting protestors protesting against something else. It doesn’t justify the increased aggression but it doesn’t take a genius to understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/151 "2021-01-09T16:38:53Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > My thinking is that there were likely 2 groups of rioters. The hardcore folk who wanted violence, and a likely greater number of easily influenced schmucks who got caught up in the moment and went along for the ride. Three groups, at least: There were the idiots who wanted violence, the idiots who didn’t even know what they wanted, and there were also a handful of very competent people who knew exactly what they wanted, and got it. Now, the vast majority of people there, or even of people anywhere, aren’t anywhere near that competent. But if there are any such people anywhere in the world, they were in that crowd on Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/152 "2021-01-09T16:46:27Z")
Too much fodder, not enough brains. Thank God. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/153 "2021-01-09T19:07:46Z")
They weren’t protesting against cops, they were protesting against police brutality. There is a pretty big difference there, though I suppose you may have a point that the cops that were treating the protesters with brutality may not have been willing or able to see it. These insurrectionists were not protesting against anything, they were assaulting our democracy, our government. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/154 "2021-01-09T21:08:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > They weren’t protesting against cops, they were protesting against police brutality. A lot of protestors and even more cops didn’t make that distinction. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2021, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/155 "2021-01-10T20:53:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If in fact Capitol police authorities were in on it, why were the legislators and staff successfully moved away from danger and protected by… Capitol police? The capitol police, as a unit, were not “in on it”. A _few_ welcomed the protestors before violence erupted. Some police have gotten the idea that since "defund the police’ is a leftist slogan and the right portrays itself as Law & order, the Proud Boy, white supremacist and trumpist nutcases are on their side- where nothing could be further from the truth. The Right has been the cause of the most serious violence in the USA, over and over and over. However, there was either collusion or incompetence at the top. I suspect incompetence due to Hanlon’s razor = “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”. aka never attribute to collusion that which is adequately explained by incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/156 "2021-01-10T20:59:52Z")
Yes, that’s it- BLM… in whiteface!!! 🤪 My gawd, they have arrested and IDed many of the rioters, aan all except one are right wing goons and morons. A few are Republican elected officials. Were they secret antifa agents? 🤣 One leftist moron, who is just about the only black face there, went to “record the violence”. He isnt antifa or BLM, but he does belong to radical leftist groups. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/157 "2021-01-10T21:05:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity By Hanlon’s razor, this clearly _was_ collusion. What happened is clearly _not_ adequately explained by stupidity. The idea that nobody could have foreseen this is preposterous. The absence of adequate manpower, backup and tactical planning is beyond just surprising, it’s unbelievable. Now, it was probably collusion by stupid people. Trump sympathizers live in an alternate reality, and pro-Trump law enforcement and military are no different. There was no strategic mastermind with a coherent plan here. But collusion by deluded idiots is still collusion, and those colluding here had a grave responsibility that they forsook. Only through good fortune and the bravery of _some_ law enforcement on the ground did we avoid a far more horrific disaster. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2021, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/158 "2021-01-10T21:09:45Z")
Agreed on the latter. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2021, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/159 "2021-01-10T21:09:52Z")
I assume some people have been worming their way into gatekeeping positions for several years. ---
**Author:** ![pirviii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pirviii/32/3233_2.png) [@pirviii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pirviii)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2021, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915/160 "2021-01-11T02:36:00Z")
I think it was a combination of they are just white people and not thugs like BLM and some of the police were sympathizers. While some were fighting with the mob at barricades, others were letting them in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-6-21-insurrection-post-mortem-how-did-it-happen-what-could-should-have-been-done-what-should-be-the-response/929915.md?page=9)