# 1.7 million Iraqis now refugees -- should the U.S. admit more than 500 of them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952 "2007-01-14T16:55:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/1 "2007-01-14T16:55:38Z")
Most of them wind up in Syria or Jordan. At present, 500 is the maximum number the State Department is planning to resettle in the U.S. Story [here.](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/10/151214) ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/2 "2007-01-14T17:16:13Z")
A movement to allow in Iraqi refugees would be a waste of time, as Bush had made it clear that he disdains popular opinion and won’t ever change policy in the face of protests. But in this particular case, there’s more than just his usual obstinance at work. If 1.7 millions Iraqi refugees show up in the USA, they’ll start talking about their experiences, which may include torture and other abuse by American troops, corruption among American contractors and the Iraqi government, and other bad stuff. That would make it harder to cover up the truth about what has happened and is still happening over there. Further, many of Bush’s supporters, besides being generally opposed to immigration, are of the opinion that Islam is an inherently violent and inferior religion, and they would not look kindly on opening the gates to such a huge number of Muslims. Of course there are now many Iraqis who detest the United States for understandable reasons. If we handed a passport to any Iraqi who showed up on our door, there’d likely be a few insurgents trying to sneak in, bent on violent revenge. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/3 "2007-01-14T17:35:49Z")
‘The Salvador Option" Continues, I see. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek/) > [@](#): > > The El Salvador option (Jan 14, 2005) > > NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration’s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported “nationalist” forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras.) > > Following that model, one Pentagon proposal would send Special Forces teams to advise, support and possibly train Iraqi squads, most likely hand-picked Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers, even across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions. It remains unclear, however, whether this would be a policy of assassination or so-called “snatch” operations, in which the targets are sent to secret facilities for interrogation. The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries, officials tell NEWSWEEK. I don’t believe in coincidences, with “I see no death squads here” (and this goes back to Central America death squads) Negroponte and Elliot Abrahams in place, the surge of Death Squad activity in 2005 and 2006 just made the situation worse, the sick thing is that at last the administration noticed that the death squads were doing what amounts to ethnic cleansing. I could before think that that was not a planned thing, but I’m not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore. I brought that up because back then I pointed out that applying a Salvador option to Iraq was going to mean that: > [@](#): > > _Here my 2004 quote is edited for clarity:_ > > In El Salvador, a country of 5 million, 75,000 had to die to prove a rotten point. If Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush think it is a good idea to apply an El Salvador solution[sup]TM[/sup] to Iraq we will have to accept that this is coming in the future: > > The population of Iraq is about 22 million, if we apply the El Salvador solution[sup]TM[/sup] we are looking at 330,000 people dead before we are finished with Iraq. The recent Lancet report points at the actual count to be even worse. ☹ > [@](#): > > Mind you, the numbers mentioned here are the numbers of people that while opposed to the government, did not grab weapons to oppose it; at best, for the rotten status quo, they could have been sympathizers of the revels; and even then, that was in no way a reason to kill them. > > If we apply the El Salvador solution[sup]TM[/sup] to Iraq, the picture of displaced people is frightening, approximately one-quarter of the population was internally displaced or had left the country by 1984 > > That applied to Iraq, means that about \*\*2 million people \*\* will become refugees in Iraq and/or will leave Iraq! > > For the USA, the El Salvador solution[sup]TM[/sup] for Iraq will mean: even more American soldiers dead on the way to this solution, and then.. > > Well, I hope that 10 years from now, you’ll like Iraqi cuisine! Well, that takes us back to the OP, while it is true no complete opening of the borders to displaced Iraqis will follow, a huge increase on the maximum number should happen just out of shame and fairness, and to finalize repeating the history that was ignored before. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/4 "2007-01-14T17:44:21Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] A movement to allow in Iraqi refugees would be a waste of time, as Bush had made it clear that he disdains popular opinion and won’t ever change policy in the face of protests. But in this particular case, there’s more than just his usual obstinance at work. If 1.7 millions Iraqi refugees show up in the USA, they’ll start talking about their experiences, which may include torture and other abuse by American troops, corruption among American contractors and the Iraqi government, and other bad stuff. That would make it harder to cover up the truth about what has happened and is still happening over there. Further, many of Bush’s supporters, besides being generally opposed to immigration, are of the opinion that Islam is an inherently violent and inferior religion, and they would not look kindly on opening the gates to such a huge number of Muslims. Of course there are now many Iraqis who detest the United States for understandable reasons. If we handed a passport to any Iraqi who showed up on our door, there’d likely be a few insurgents trying to sneak in, bent on violent revenge. [/QUOTE] Possible, but I have trouble remembering any Vietnamese-American or Salvadorian-American bent on violent revenge. The thing is that the community does a good job on pointing out at the violent members that do sneak in, problem is that in El Salvador case sometimes the US had to be cattle prodded to do something about them. (Some former death squad members did come to the US and only recently they began to be in hot legal problems even though many did point at them during the Reagan and Bush senior administrations) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/5 "2007-01-14T17:55:59Z")
I know there are still some people that feel that the Iraq operation was a net gain for the Iraqis, but can this reasonably be true if, as the OP’s link claims, close to 2 million people have been displaced by the war? It doesn’t seem difficult to conclude that it is not. Meanwhile, the US, given its responsibilities for the consequences of its invasion, should admit as many Iraqis as want to come here and can be vetted as not hostile to the US. From a practical standpoint, though, it’ll never happen, at least during this administration. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/6 "2007-01-14T17:57:29Z")
I can’t say I’d be shocked if the quota remained that low - after all, there was a special immigration category created recently for people who have served as translators with U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, people who might reasonably be assumed to be at a heightened level of risk for violent retribution. What’s the annual immigration quota for these people? A whopping [fifty:](http://www.travel.state.gov/travel/visa/frvi_bulletincurrent.html) “The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2006 (Title X, Section 1059 of Public Law 109-163 enacted January 6, 2006) established a new immigrant visa classification for self-petitioning Iraqi or Afghani nationals who have worked directly with the United States Armed Forces as translators for a period of at least 12 months. The total number of principal aliens who may be provided special immigrant status under this provision may not exceed 50 in any fiscal year.” Way to support the people who have supported the U.S., guys. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/7 "2007-01-14T19:52:34Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Possible, but I have trouble remembering any Vietnamese-American or Salvadorian-American bent on violent revenge. [/QUOTE] Those ethnicities didn’t already have a pan-Asian or pan-Latino movement of religious fundamentalism and violence directed towards murdering Westerners. Iraqi fury has a ready-made violent movement to be channeled through. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/8 "2007-01-14T20:13:54Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Those ethnicities didn’t already have a pan-Asian or pan-Latino movement of religious fundamentalism and violence directed towards murdering Westerners. Iraqi fury has a ready-made violent movement to be channeled through. [/QUOTE] IIRC the Sunnis in Iraq, that are now the most affected, (and a good number of Shias) were some of the most secular in the Islamic world (seems to me that was one of the reasons why Bush thought a secular democracy could come out of it). As more fundamentalist forces are taking over, I should not be surprised to see many of the ones that are leaving to be less supportive of fundamentalism, like doctors or technical workers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/9 "2007-01-14T23:38:49Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] As more fundamentalist forces are taking over, I should not be surprised to see many of the ones that are leaving to be less supportive of fundamentalism, like doctors or technical workers. [/QUOTE] And we can **always** use more of those, and the immigration authorities seem to think so too; which is why you probably have on occasion dealt with a doctor – but rarely with a lawyer – who speaks only fair-to-middling English. ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/10 "2007-01-15T01:03:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Those ethnicities didn’t already have a pan-Asian or pan-Latino movement of religious fundamentalism and violence directed towards murdering Westerners. Iraqi fury has a ready-made violent movement to be channeled through. Why are they so mad at us?? ☹☹ ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/11 "2007-01-15T02:54:21Z")
So let’s see. That makes 2 million displaced Iraqis on top of 500,000 or so dead Iraqis. Add to that 3,000 dead Americans and another 25,000 horribly wounded Americans. And for what? The removal and execution of Saddam Hussein. Somehow, it just doesn’t seem worth the cost. At least to me, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/12 "2007-01-15T14:19:24Z")
A few months ago, I heard on the BBC World Service, about Iraqi girls turning up with suitcases in the Green Zone, having a quick marriage service and being whisked off to the airport. It sounded like a common thing. Probably there is rather a lot of Iraqi GI brides in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/13 "2007-01-15T15:11:49Z")
My bad. If approximately one-quarter of the population will be internally displaced or will leave the country in an “El Salvador Option” The number will be 5,500,000 For Iraq. Sounds about right if the plan continues for 2 years more. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/14 "2007-01-15T22:06:11Z")
[QUOTE=Frostillicus] So let’s see. That makes 2 million displaced Iraqis on top of 500,000 or so dead Iraqis. [/QUOTE] 500.000 dead Iraqis? That’s about 450 dead Iraqis killed (ie. combat related) each and every day for the last three years or so. How can you possibly find that figure credible. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/15 "2007-01-15T22:24:34Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] 500.000 dead Iraqis? That’s about 450 dead Iraqis killed (ie. combat related) each and every day for the last three years or so. How can you possibly find that figure credible. [/QUOTE] Easily. When you combine American military activities ( including the use of such things as cluster bombs and napalm ), all the internal factional fighting, the collapse of law and order leading to rampant violent crime , with the _indirect_ war related but not violent causes of death, such as the ruin of the hospitals, I find such a high number quite plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/16 "2007-01-15T22:56:06Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Easily. When you combine American military activities ( including the use of such things as cluster bombs and napalm ), [/quote] Cluster bombs and napalm are not being used by coalition forces in Iraq. > [@](#): > > all the internal factional fighting, the collapse of law and order leading to rampant violent crime , with the _indirect_ war related but not violent causes of death, such as the ruin of the hospitals, I find such a high number quite plausible. If you’re going to lump in every death due to violence, including old fashioned criminal violence, or disease, or accident, or exposure and attribute the cause to the occcupation forces, then you might as well throw in all Iraqi deaths caused by old age. If you did that, the final total would be even higher than the half million number conjured up out of God knows where, but it would still be implausible nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/17 "2007-01-15T23:23:08Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] If you’re going to lump in every death due to violence, including old fashioned criminal violence, or disease, or accident, or exposure and attribute the cause to the occcupation forces, then you might as well throw in all Iraqi deaths caused by old age. If you did that, the final total would be even higher than the half million number conjured up out of God knows where, but it would still be implausible nonsense. [/QUOTE] So are you saying the Lancet knows more than god? News to them, but the way they obtained the numbers has not been discredited. > **[BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iraq death toll 'soared post-war'](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm)** > > Poor planning and coalition air strikes have led to more than 100,000 extra civilian deaths in Iraq, scientists find. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/18 "2007-01-15T23:29:08Z")
Sorry, that was the 2004 report, the news on the 2006 is here: > **[BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | 'Huge rise' in Iraqi death tolls](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm)** > > An estimated 655,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the 2003 US-led invasion, a US-Iraqi academic study says. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/19 "2007-01-16T03:00:54Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] 500.000 dead Iraqis? That’s about 450 dead Iraqis killed (ie. combat related) each and every day for the last three years or so. How can you possibly find that figure credible. [/QUOTE] My bad. According to the Johns Hopkins study, the excess deaths are actually 655,000 since the war started. Turns out I was way too low. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html) ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952/20 "2007-01-16T06:41:50Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] Cluster bombs and napalm are not being used by coalition forces in Iraq. [/quote] Presumably not currently, but cluster bombs (and other weapons with submunition dispersal warheads, notably MLRS rockets) were used freely in 2003 by US and British forces alike. Altogether over 10,000 of them. [Link](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm) Civilian casualties due to these weapons were high and documented - and with the notorious failure rate of these weapons, I’m sure a few thousand duds still remain to liberate Iraqis from their limbs in the future. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-7-million-iraqis-now-refugees-should-the-u-s-admit-more-than-500-of-them/387952.md?page=2)