# "1 Student Killed, 7 Injured In Colorado School Shooting" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651 "2019-05-08T01:43:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/281 "2019-05-15T02:19:15Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Glad you’re alright. FWIW, I looked it up for shits and giggles. Mostly because I wondered where **Czarcasm** was going with that question, and partly to fight my own ignorance. > > It will not shock you to learn that I would like to stick with my original answer. > > Feel free to bookmark this as well. Wouldn’t want you to run out of ammo. Just FYI, assault\* rifles \*are already effectively banned in the USA, as they can go full auto. They have never been legal (without a very hard to get and expensive federal permit). Ignorance fought. What’s a 'assault weapon" then? Whatever some politician sez it is. Usually a perfectly ordinary semi-auto rifle that has been outfitted with a flash suppressor, bayonet lug and the like, so as it _looks_ scary. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/282 "2019-05-15T02:20:33Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > You seem to think that a person can’t hunt or defend themselves without a gun. That’s is incorrect. Not vs several opponents or vs thugs with a gun. And altho a bow is Ok for certain game, it’s very hard to down game birds, ducks, etc with one. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/283 "2019-05-15T02:28:42Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > [During a speech recently](https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/12/politics/kamala-harris-gun-control-cnntv/index.html), Harris mentioned her plan if elected to implement a few executive orders since Congress has been shirking its gun control duties in her opinion. From the speech: > > There is something to work with here, but it seems Harris might need a refresher on the responsibilities of a dealer. If one is a Federal Firearms Dealer, ALL sales that they perform must include a Federal NICS background check or equivalent. There is no minimum sales number that forces this requirement. The checks are required whether the dealer sells from his kitchen, a shop, or even a gun show. It is his or her responsibility to have the NICS check and a form 4473 for every sale completed (unless they are selling their own personally held firearms that are documented appropriately) > > Perhaps, she is suggesting that is someone is engaging in the business of selling firearms without a license, that a threshold be implemented of 5 sales annually in order to trigger the need for some sort of new license, I’m not sure. > > What is known however is that there are individuals who purchase new guns, complete with NICS checks and form 4473’s and quickly sell these guns to folks in huge numbers “off the books” as since they are not FFL dealers, they have no responsibility to document the sales. This is a large contributor to the illegal trafficking of firearms, and the perpetrators are often quite well known the law enforcement and even the ATF. > > There is no need for compromise on this one. The Feds know who are doing it, they have the paperwork, yet these sales, along with those folks who lie and fail NICS checks are almost NEVER prosecuted, and that is putting it mildly. > > If Harris wants to pick up the enforcement of the prosecution of these sales, I would have no issue at all. the penalty is 10 years/$10k so it is not an insignificant amount. It’s anyone’s guess as to why this low hanging fruit is not being exploited. Yes, I have said this very thing. Making anyone who sells more than five guns a year (I’d make the number a little higher, but not higher than 12) into a “dealer” under the law is a great idea. The strawman sellers who are not dealers have to be stopped. **Look, see- I am suggesting stronger gun laws!** But it does display her basic ignorance of the laws she wants to change. You can’t “remove and take away the licenses of gun dealers who fail to follow the law.” if they dont have a license. And if they DO have a license, they have to file and do background on any number of guns sold, even a single gun. It’s amazing that a woman who has been DA, AG and has put into effect one big time gun law in CA, and wants to issues executive orders on guns- doesnt understand that basic point. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/284 "2019-05-15T02:29:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is this illegal? Yes, and we have had this very conversation before, several times in fact iirc. It’s called a 'strawman sale". ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/285 "2019-05-15T10:37:49Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > You seem to have this mistaken notion that if all semi auto guns were waved away that would solve the problem. [URL=“[https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF](https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF)”] I believe what I said above was banning handguns and semi-auto rifles. You get to keep shotguns and rifles that aren’t semi-auto. > [@](#): > > For the record _“I don’t want to take ALL of your guns, just some of them”_ is not a compromise. For the record, giving up ZERO of your guns isn’t a compromise either. What compromise law are you envisioning that allows everyone who has guns to keep them, yet somehow reduces the number of deaths from guns? Because, as I’ve said in other threads, I don’t really care what you own, I care that people are dying in huge numbers. If the law doesn’t reduce deaths it doesn’t interest me. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/286 "2019-05-15T10:48:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, I have said this very thing. Making anyone who sells more than five guns a year (I’d make the number a little higher, but not higher than 12) into a “dealer” under the law is a great idea. The strawman sellers who are not dealers have to be stopped. **Look, see- I am suggesting stronger gun laws!** > > But it does display her basic ignorance of the laws she wants to change. You can’t “remove and take away the licenses of gun dealers who fail to follow the law.” How do you make someone who sells more than 5 (12) guns a year into a dealer if they are not required to document the sales in the first place? As a humorous aside, when I served on a Grand Jury (in NJ) we had an “assault weapon” crime before us, and I asked the ADA to define an assault weapon, in no small part because of threads like this. Hoo Boy! The ADA must have had a bug up her ass because she spent the next 5 minutes reading a list of individual models of rifle followed up by “and other firearms substantially similar to the above.” I heard a rumor that the “drug paraphernalia” list is even longer. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/287 "2019-05-15T12:24:59Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > [Page one, first bullet.](https://www.atf.gov/file/58681/download) Well, if I don’t ask you, then I don’t have any reason to believe you are not allowed to purchase a gun. or “Hey, is it legal for you to buy a gun?” “Yep!” “Ok, here’s mine!” ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/288 "2019-05-15T14:29:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, if I don’t ask you, then I don’t have any reason to believe you are not allowed to purchase a gun. > > or “Hey, is it legal for you to buy a gun?” “Yep!” “Ok, here’s mine!” It’s a crime, how you go about skirting law doesn’t concern me. My point is that sellers are knowingly breaking the law, and administrations going back as far as Clinton do nothing or very little about it. When they have the same people buying lots of handguns and then selling them, there is clearly a problem. If they were a legitimate dealer, they would get an FFL, purchase at wholesale and actually run a legit business. [Perfect example of straw purchases with little to no consequences.](http://archive.jsonline.com/news/crime/milwaukee-man-to-be-sentenced-on-gun-fraud-charge-b99560011z1-322283481.html/) ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/289 "2019-05-15T14:41:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I believe what I said above was banning handguns and semi-auto rifles. You get to keep shotguns and rifles that aren’t semi-auto. For the record, giving up ZERO of your guns isn’t a compromise either. For the record, there have been plenty of guns that have been given up via one ban or another, one misguided law or another, or labeled as “non sporting” so banned from import since 1934 so don’t be too proud of that “gotcha”. It’s not. Giving up firearms in the name of compromise has already been done multiple times. > [@](#): > > What compromise law are you envisioning that allows everyone who has guns to keep them, yet somehow reduces the number of deaths from guns? Because, as I’ve said in other threads, I don’t really care what you own, I care that people are dying in huge numbers. If the law doesn’t reduce deaths it doesn’t interest me. I’ll get to this later today. I already wrote a book on a national firearms license. That’s a good start. If you don’t think that’s a compromise, tell me what other constitutional rights you have a permit for. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/290 "2019-05-15T16:53:58Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > It’s a crime, how you go about skirting law doesn’t concern me. My point is that sellers are knowingly breaking the law, and administrations going back as far as Clinton do nothing or very little about it. > > When they have the same people buying lots of handguns and then selling them, there is clearly a problem. If they were a legitimate dealer, they would get an FFL, purchase at wholesale and actually run a legit business. > > [Perfect example of straw purchases with little to no consequences.](http://archive.jsonline.com/news/crime/milwaukee-man-to-be-sentenced-on-gun-fraud-charge-b99560011z1-322283481.html/) That guy got in trouble for BUYING guns, not selling them. And I say sellers are NOT breaking the law, because the law does not require them to make sure the person buying is legally allowed to buy. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/291 "2019-05-15T18:01:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That guy got in trouble for BUYING guns, not selling them. And I say sellers are NOT breaking the law, because the law does not require them to make sure the person buying is legally allowed to buy. The first bullet from the ATF says otherwise. I’ll check WI law later. I find it hard to believe you want to argue about this. He conducted at least 27 straw purchases. Lied on at least the same number of Federal documents yet was put on probation due to his budding rap career. WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/292 "2019-05-15T18:20:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about an honest answer? The honest answer is , I already knew he did not know. But aside from that , that he didn’t care as his only agenda is to ban as many guns as he can. So no, there is no ‘debating’ that. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/293 "2019-05-15T18:23:15Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I believe what I said above was banning handguns and semi-auto rifles. You get to keep shotguns and rifles that aren’t semi-auto. For the record, giving up ZERO of your guns isn’t a compromise either. > > What compromise law are you envisioning that allows everyone who has guns to keep them, yet somehow reduces the number of deaths from guns? Because, as I’ve said in other threads, I don’t really care what you own, I care that people are dying in huge numbers. If the law doesn’t reduce deaths it doesn’t interest me. Wait what problem are you trying to solve? If the problem you are trying to solve is gun related deaths (or gun related crimes) , the answer isn’t necessarily that I have to give up anything. If you are fighting for a different ideal than the one mentioned, say like, taking guns away from lawful citizens, that’s fine but we are continually told that no one wants to do that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/294 "2019-05-15T18:39:11Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I believe what I said above was banning handguns and semi-auto rifles. You get to keep shotguns and rifles that aren’t semi-auto. For the record, giving up ZERO of your guns isn’t a compromise either. > > What compromise law are you envisioning that allows everyone who has guns to keep them, yet somehow reduces the number of deaths from guns? Because, as I’ve said in other threads, I don’t really care what you own, I care that people are dying in huge numbers. If the law doesn’t reduce deaths it doesn’t interest me. Why should us, the law abiding citizens, give up any of our guns? The compromise is measures that help to prevent criminals from getting guns. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/295 "2019-05-15T18:42:29Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > I’ll get to this later today. I already wrote a book on a national firearms license. That’s a good start. If you don’t think that’s a compromise, tell me what other constitutional rights you have a permit for. That is a compromise, no question about it. I don’t think a license alone attacks the problem of firearm deaths, so I wouldn’t bother with implementing one if it isn’t coupled with another system that more effectively prevents guns from getting into criminal hands. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/296 "2019-05-15T18:49:17Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Wait what problem are you trying to solve? If the problem you are trying to solve is gun related deaths (or gun related crimes) , the answer isn’t necessarily that I have to give up anything. That’s the problem I want to solve. I have observed that there are countries who have solved this particular problem. The answer for them, the answer that worked, is that you have to give up something. If you think there’s some other way to do it, fine, do that instead. But understand, it needs to work, and work comparably as well as the other answer does in other countries for me to be satisfied. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/297 "2019-05-15T19:10:07Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That’s the problem I want to solve. I have observed that there are countries who have solved this particular problem. The answer for them, the answer that worked, is that you have to give up something. > > If you think there’s some other way to do it, fine, do that instead. But understand, it needs to work, and work comparably as well as the other answer does in other countries for me to be satisfied. Which would be great, if the shoes were on the other feet. It is currently up to you and those who believe as you do to propose, and for us to agree or disagree (collectively) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/298 "2019-05-15T19:27:08Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That’s the problem I want to solve. I have observed that there are countries who have solved this particular problem. The answer for them, the answer that worked, is that you have to give up something. > > If you think there’s some other way to do it, fine, do that instead. But understand, it needs to work, and work comparably as well as the other answer does in other countries for me to be satisfied. Here’s the thing- those other nations aren’t the uSA. They never had a gun culture, they never had 300 million guns. Now yes, the USA has too many murders, but overall, we are smack dab in the middle of all nations (no cherry picking). Too much gun violence, sure, but compared to other things, it’s not that big of a problem. 10000 murdered a year by guns= too many (but also about the same number that died by drunk drivers.) But compared to 500,000 killed by tobacco, (50000 of which are innocent NON-smokers), 90,000 from alcohol, 70,000 from durg (of which 20000 were prescription drugs) and so forth. In a nation of 300 million people, 10,000 isnt really that much. So let’s ban smoking first. That will save 50 times as many lives. No constitutional issues. No useful uses of tobacco. Just ban it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/299 "2019-05-15T19:28:52Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Which would be great, if the shoes were on the other feet. It is currently up to you and those who believe as you do to propose, and for us to agree or disagree (collectively) Nothing is going to happen unless we agree collectively. Really, when you get down to brass tacks, I don’t want to take away your guns, I can’t take your guns even if I wanted to. I want you to give up your guns. I want you to realize that the last 50 years of our history, with 10-20 thousand gun murders a year (and twice that many suicides), is not going to change unless the guns themselves go away. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/300 "2019-05-15T19:36:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So let’s ban smoking first. That will save 50 times as many lives. No constitutional issues. No useful uses of tobacco. Just ban it. Fine, we can ban tobacco tomorrow, and start on guns this coming Monday\*. I’d ban cars too, but I kind of like a functioning economy, so they can stay until self driving cars eliminate 99% of accidents. \*Although… let’s be honest… we’re probably ALL better off getting the guns away from smokers before we ban tobacco. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651.md?page=16)