# "1 Student Killed, 7 Injured In Colorado School Shooting" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651 "2019-05-08T01:43:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/121 "2019-05-13T00:22:08Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Yes, I’m aware that there was an era where fully automatic weapons were available. Not sure of your point. Maybe all that shit was _available_, but for whatever reason, it wasn’t a thing. > > Tell me, how many of those things were sold back in, say, 1966 when Charles Whitman went on his (sniper rifle) rampage, versus how many have been sold annually over the past 15 years since the assault rifle ban ended? Almost no fully auto weapons have been sold. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/122 "2019-05-13T00:23:43Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > … > > Regarding assault rifles, a ban never existed nor did it expire. In 1986 any new sales of NFA assault rifles were banned for civilians and a registry was created for civilian ownership that tracks the transfers or destruction of the firearms that have been registered. > > If you want to talk about the assault “weapon” (AW) ban that was implemented in 1994, it is impossible to tell because unless you think there is a material difference in a semi auto rifle equipped with a flash hider that makes it an AW and that same weapon without a flash hider does not make it an AW nothing was ever banned, no production or sales ever stopped other than for specific cosmetic configurations. > > During the ban years (94-2004) I was able to buy any semi auto rifle I wanted as long as it met a few non functional limits imposed by the legislation or if it was built prior to 1994. As the ban expired in 2004, those cosmetic restrictions were removed and production and sales continued as had been for the previous 10 years. > … Pretty much they have been banned in California. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/123 "2019-05-13T00:26:27Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > This is a ridiculously specious argument. In order for tragic gun violence to happen, two factors are required. One is the ready availability of guns. The other is the human factor: societal stresses, anger, hate, fear, jealousy, the quest for revenge, and so on. … > … Sure, but that’s a tautology.\* In order for tragic gun violence to happen\*,…there must be guns. But\* tragic violence \*can & will happen without guns. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/124 "2019-05-13T00:30:01Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > I don’t think it’s too much to think that expanded background checks, a ban if you have an EPO within the last five years, and another assault weapons ban (waived upon approval from local law enforcement) aren’t too much to ask for. > > Of course, we’ll get none of those, because the gun-worshipers are somehow convinced that they NEED access to military surplus-grade weapons to feel better about themselves and their precious little psyches. They seem to think that something called an “amendment” can’t be altered, despite the name of it literally meaning to change or edit. EPO? The "gun worshipers’ are about 5% of the gun owning public. They have very little power. The other 75 Million gun owners in America are pretty much normal responsible people, many of whom are democrats. And the only "military surplus-grade weapons " that were commonly sold were WW2 and prior bolt action rifles. Sure the 2nd can be gotten rid of. Do you really want people messing around with the Bill of Rights? Very bad things could come out of it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/125 "2019-05-13T00:38:39Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think a lot of it comes down to just fundamental different world views. At some point people of your persuasion will throw up their hands and say what’s the point. You seem to take it as obvious your point of view, and it is incredulous that anyone could think differently. Yes, reasonable people can disagree. One little problem, though: **you have not given a reason that the disagreeing party (Magiver, per the post you were replying to) is in fact being reasonable.** It doens’t work the other way: disagreement does not always mean reasonable people. This thread is, in fact, full of arguments showing that **Magiver** is not being reasonable. He’s being unreasonable by even a pro-gun supporter’s standards. He’s disagreeing with the fact (not opinion) that guns can kill more people more quickly. He doesn’t get why removing guns (if it could be done successfully) would stop school shootings. What you are doing is a logical fallacy (affirming the consequent). The statement is that reasonable people can disagree. In other words, _if people are reasonable, they are may disagree_. This reverse does not hold: _If people may disagree, then they are reasonable._\* > [@](#): > > Whereas on Friday I talked to a co-worker whose kids go to the school where the shooting took place. He thinks there should be armed guards at every ingress and egress point. That wouldn’t necessarily be my tact, but I do think it’s worth while understanding that reasonable people can disagree. And you run into the problem again. You haven’t even argued that this guy’s “tact” is a reasonable one. You’ve just assumed it as such. In fact, the man’s statement, while understandable, is not reasonable. Regardless of your opinion on gun control, there are not enough people to arm all schools to this degree. There aren’t even enough to arm every school, period. The logistics don’t work. He is a distraught father reeling in anger at how unsafe our school children are. It’s understandable that he may come up with some ideas that don’t work. While we should not dismiss arguments simply because he is close to the situation, we should also not privilege his arguments. In summation, you have not actually established any of the actual points you made. You haven’t provided any evidence of people ignoring reasonable ideas because they disagree. You have not established that “people of your persuasion” actually have done anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/126 "2019-05-13T00:44:11Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Unless you’re pushing 100 years old or so, your anecdote really doesn’t hold a lot of water in the bigger US picture. There was a time in the US where unfettered access to _true_ assault rifles, not the neutered semi auto rifles available today, was commonplace. Check this scene from the movie [The Highwaymen to see what depression era gun shops looked like.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2f_jW06Rtw) Full auto guns, short barreled shotguns, all sorts of mayhem causing items, available to the general public without forms, background checks, waiting periods, etc. Yet, school shootings did not exist and only “gangsters” and the like caused problems. > > Today’s semi auto rifles and pistols haven’t really changed much in quite some time. Detachable magazines, collapsible stocks, all that nonsense has been commercially available for a couple of generations. It’s only in the last 30 years or so has the concept of school shootings become a thing. My point is, it certainly is not the firearms that are driving the trend. They have always been here in one shape or another. The pro gun side tries to make this distinction, but the other side has shown time and time again, that they really don’t give a shit. Not singling you out or anything. That all may be very well true but it still does not negate the fact that getting rid of them is a solution to the problem. You get that right? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/127 "2019-05-13T00:54:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > EPO? > > The "gun worshipers’ are about 5% of the gun owning public. They have very little power. The other 75 Million gun owners in America are pretty much normal responsible people, many of whom are democrats. > > And the only "military surplus-grade weapons " that were commonly sold were WW2 and prior bolt action rifles. > > Sure the 2nd can be gotten rid of. Do you really want people messing around with the Bill of Rights? Very bad things could come out of it. I never said anything about getting rid of the 2nd Amendment. I support the right to bear arms, and there are guns in my house. I was thinking more in terms of banning some sorts of weapons. We have restrictions on the 2nd Amendment anyway. You can’t buy an ICBM for your home defense. Can’t buy a tank to drive to work. People act like that amendment is unalterable. I’m just pointing out that it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/128 "2019-05-13T00:56:05Z")
Sorry for double-post. EPO = Emergency Protection Order. Essentially, a restraining order. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/129 "2019-05-13T01:05:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > EPO? > > The "gun worshipers’ are about 5% of the gun owning public. If this is true, it is irrelevant. The term “gun worshipers” is a (admittedly derogatory) term for people who refuse any and all form of gun control, regardless of other concerns. They put gun rights above most other concerns, i.e. like an object of worship. This at the very least describes the NRA, given their stated positions. And the NRA does in fact only account for about 7% of the gun owning public. Problem is, what matters isn’t raw numbers, but political power. And the NRA has political power in this country, as they are aligned with the majority party of the US. Even when a minority, they have enough supporters in government to make passing any gun control laws very difficult, even if they are the laws that the majority of the public support. If only 7% of gun owners are gun worshipers, as you claim, then this shouldn’t be the case. That would mean 93% of people either don’t care or actively are for some increase in gun control. That should be a slam dunk in Congress and get passed right way by even Trump. (It would make him look good, so he’d do it.) When that happens, I’ll accept that these “gun worshipers” are that heavily outnumbered. For now, I’ll accept they aren’t the majority, but I won’t accept they aren’t large enough to be preventing progress on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/130 "2019-05-13T01:41:30Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Whereas gun control is a well-bounded and manageable objective, and as all other civilized nations have discovered, an extremely important one. I really wish people could have this conversation without classifying countries as “civilized”, implying that other countries are uncivilized. It drives me up the wall. Different countries have different strengths and weaknesses, and struggle with different problems, but all of humanity is civilized, whether it’s an urban city or small tribe in a rural area. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/131 "2019-05-13T01:44:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Constitution sez otherwise. > > And in fact, since the shooter apparently broke into a locked gun safe to get the guns, pretty much no gun law proposed in the USA would have prevented this. > > According to several studies, the cause in the rise of school shootings is media attention. If we muzzled the media that would cut down drastically on school shootings. It turns out that’s in the Constitution, too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/132 "2019-05-13T02:12:59Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > That all may be very well true but it still does not negate the fact that getting rid of them is a solution to the problem. You get that right? Certainly. If you had a magic wand and could get rid of all the 300 millions guns in private hands in this nation by a wave, _gun_ violence and school _shootings_ would drastically decrease. Until people made more, which you can in any decent shop. But how much would \*violence \*and school \*killings \*decrease, after the initial shock? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/133 "2019-05-13T02:15:10Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > I never said anything about getting rid of the 2nd Amendment. I support the right to bear arms, and there are guns in my house. > > I was thinking more in terms of banning some sorts of weapons. We have restrictions on the 2nd Amendment anyway. You can’t buy an ICBM for your home defense. Can’t buy a tank to drive to work. > > People act like that amendment is unalterable. I’m just pointing out that it’s not. Sure. What would you like to ban? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/134 "2019-05-13T02:21:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But how much would \*violence \*and school \*killings \*decrease, after the initial shock? Yes, that part is unknowable. I agree we can disagree on that point and still have an honest debate. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/135 "2019-05-13T02:35:23Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If this is true, it is irrelevant. The term “gun worshipers” is a (admittedly derogatory) term for people who refuse any and all form of gun control, regardless of other concerns. They put gun rights above most other concerns, i.e. like an object of worship. This at the very least describes the NRA, given their stated positions. And the NRA does in fact only account for about 7% of the gun owning public. > > Problem is, what matters isn’t raw numbers, but political power. And the NRA has political power in this country, as they are aligned with the majority party of the US. Even when a minority, they have enough supporters in government to make passing any gun control laws very difficult, even if they are the laws that the majority of the public support. > > If only 7% of gun owners are gun worshipers, as you claim, then this shouldn’t be the case. That would mean 93% of people either don’t care or actively are for some increase in gun control. That should be a slam dunk in Congress and get passed right way by even Trump. (It would make him look good, so he’d do it.) > > When that happens, I’ll accept that these “gun worshipers” are that heavily outnumbered. For now, I’ll accept they aren’t the majority, but I won’t accept they aren’t large enough to be preventing progress on this issue. The NRA is aligned with the GOP, whether or not that’s the majority party is debatable. The NRA hasnt a tenth of the power peopel think it has. No, it’s means that 93% of gun owners dont want _their_ guns banned. They are Ok with banning bump stocks are they have never used one, and never owned one. They can be brought in to ban “assault weapons” but the “gun grabbers” have shown themselves to be untrustworthy, trying all sorts of funny “slippery slope” tricks to ban THEIR guns. Like recently defining “assault weapons” as all semi-automatic weapons, despite that fact that somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 of all guns in the USA are semi-autos including many deer rifles, duck shotguns, and home defense pistols. So, they have read that thing Niemöller: "\*First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me." \* First they came for the Assault weapons, and i did not speak out, because I didn’t own one… See, there are some 70-100 million adults of voting age in the USA that own guns. Many are democrats, even. But when the "gun grabbers’ pull crappy tricks like in CA: The Assault weapons ban: You could keep them, if you registered them. Oh, but the Sheriffs office has run out of forms, so you can’t register your gun? Ok, we will give you an extension- Psych! Nope, all those are now illegal and confiscated. Oh and when you die- your family can’t sell that gun, the state conficastes it and destroys it, with no recompense. Oh, it’s not a 'assault weapon" if the magazine needs to be removed by a tool? Cool, we will just make guns with a magazine that removes with a very simple tool- such as a bullet. No, we will make that illegal too. Turn them in. Microstamping? The CA two mark method is technologically impossible? Doesn’t matter, we will now ban the sale of any new models of guns that dont have the impossible thing. So those other, non “gun nut” non-NRA gun owners are suspicious of any gun law. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/136 "2019-05-13T02:37:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It turns out that’s in the Constitution, too. Yeah, how about that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/137 "2019-05-13T03:20:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, how about that. So while you are trying to lecture people on one amendment, please don’t bother suggesting solutions that run afoul of another, more important one. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/138 "2019-05-13T03:30:00Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > That all may be very well true but it still does not negate the fact that getting rid of them is a solution to the problem. You get that right? And it’s already been determined, via the courts that is not going to happen. You get that right? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/139 "2019-05-13T03:36:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Guns do not enable you to defend yourself. > [@Magiver](#): > > I think most police officer’s would disagree with you. They are quite effective in self defense. Magiver, here in the UK, **the beat police do not carry guns**. That’s over 100,000 police officers that disagree with you. In addition, after a gunman killed schoolchildren and a teacher in Scotland in 1996, the UK banned handguns; **no school shootings have taken place there since**. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/140 "2019-05-13T03:40:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So while you are trying to lecture people on one amendment, please don’t bother suggesting solutions that run afoul of another, more important one. All of the Bill of Rights is important. Many here would happily tear it up just to get rid of the 2nd Ad. I am pointing out that while we’re talking about getting rid of constitutional protections just to get a little imaginary safety, that other Amendments cause lives lost also. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651.md?page=8)