# "1 Student Killed, 7 Injured In Colorado School Shooting" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651 "2019-05-08T01:43:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/161 "2019-05-13T17:20:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > And what would that have done for the incident in question? How would a background check prevent firearms from being stolen and used for nefarious purposes? This is an example of why it seems like gun control advocacy groups seem to celebrate when a tragedy occurs, they do what I’ve seen referred to as a “blood dance”, happy to use any incident as a springboard to launch into advocacy for unrelated policies on the backs of the tragedy. It would be like in reaction to a high profile suicide, Everytown comes out against high capacity magazines. This discussion has obviously morphed into the broader issue of gun violence and mass shootings. Whatever advocacy groups do, nothing I said could remotely be construed into being a “blood dance” or “happy” at having a tragedy to exploit. > [@](#): > > The only thing that prevents this incident is a ban and confiscation. Unless that is the proposal on the table, then anything else is either woefully misguided or a ruse to get on the path towards a ban and confiscation. It could be both. This is just the sort of silliness that prevents even the possibility of discussing this issue. We already know that some gun control efforts can have some effectiveness – mass shootings with full auto weapons are quite rare, and I think it’s reasonable to believe that this rarity is related to the relative difficulty in acquiring full auto weapons. But you didn’t even attempt to address what I really said. Do you agree with my assessment of American culture with respect to guns? I assume (because I think you’re a smart guy) that you agree with it, you just don’t necessarily think it’s a bad thing, that America mythologizes violence and especially gun violence in a way that most other prosperous countries’ cultures do not. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/162 "2019-05-13T18:06:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But you didn’t even attempt to address what I really said. Do you agree with my assessment of American culture with respect to guns? I assume (because I think you’re a smart guy) that you agree with it, you just don’t necessarily think it’s a bad thing, that America mythologizes violence and especially gun violence in a way that most other prosperous countries’ cultures do not. I certainly agree there is gun culture in the US. I disagree with any non-objective assessment you’ve made regarding that culture. _“Celebrates and mythologizes violence, and in particular gun violence”_ Oh please. That’s on par with saying that gun control advocates have a culture of doing a blood dance celebrating the murder of children. I don’t think you realize how wildly off base and offensive it can be to portray others as mustache twirling villains who celebrate violence. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/163 "2019-05-13T18:08:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This discussion has obviously morphed into the broader issue of gun violence and mass shootings. Whatever advocacy groups do, nothing I said could remotely be construed into being a “blood dance” or “happy” at having a tragedy to exploit. > > This is just the sort of silliness that prevents even the possibility of discussing this issue. We already know that some gun control efforts can have some effectiveness – mass shootings with full auto weapons are quite rare, and I think it’s reasonable to believe that this rarity is related to the relative difficulty in acquiring full auto weapons. > > But you didn’t even attempt to address what I really said. Do you agree with my assessment of American culture with respect to guns? I assume (because I think you’re a smart guy) that you agree with it, you just don’t necessarily think it’s a bad thing, that America mythologizes violence and especially gun violence in a way that most other prosperous countries’ cultures do not. Mass shootings with legal full auto weapons are not rare. They do not happen. There are approximately 600,000 full auto weapons in civilians ownership and represent tens of thousands of dollars of investment each. It takes a year to pass a background check to purchase one IF you live in a state that allows them. They are not, and should not be part of any discussion of gun control. There is no relative difficulty. It is next to impossible for most to enter that playing field. The term “safe queen” fits those firearms best, rarely seeing the light of day. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/164 "2019-05-13T18:14:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think what \*\*DrDeth \*\*means is that there are some gun-control advocates who are hoping for a “one step back in order to make several steps forward” type of event. That while the killing of 500 people in one giant spree would be a tragedy, it might the long-awaited catalyst for major gun control that wouldn’t have been possible otherwise. Why would they think that? The irony is that when the next record-setting mass shooting happens – even one of that magnitude – it probably won’t move the needle on the gun control issue one bit. Sandy Hook did not. Vegas did not. The cumulative effect of all the mass shootings of recent years put together did not. Here’s what will happen instead. The gun side will say that it’s impossible to discuss the issue rationally in the heat of the moment after such an event. The gun side will declare a societal problem and ruminate about the mental health of the particular individual. The gun side will point out that the guns involved were legal, or else that they were illegal, as if either way that settles the issue. The gun side will blame the media for their incessant coverage of the event and declare “media attention” to be a major part of the problem. The NRA will tell us how much safer all those victims would have been if they had all been armed. And of course, thoughts and prayers will abound. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/165 "2019-05-13T18:20:08Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I certainly agree there is gun culture in the US. I disagree with any non-objective assessment you’ve made regarding that culture. _“Celebrates and mythologizes violence, and in particular gun violence”_ Oh please. That’s on par with saying that gun control advocates have a culture of doing a blood dance celebrating the murder of children. I don’t think you realize how wildly off base and offensive it can be to portray others as mustache twirling villains who celebrate violence. That’s not what I said at all. And what I’m saying certainly doesn’t just apply to gun owners (which includes me, by the way). It’s the whole American culture, from the very beginning – the frontier pioneer, the western/cowboy hero, the idealistic young man who volunteers in wartime and becomes a war hero, the grizzled cop who doesn’t play by the rules and gets the bad guys, and much more – these are all uniquely/iconically American archetypes, all of whom used deadly violence (usually with guns) in the service of decency, goodness, and American values (in the myth-making). The media and art has celebrated violence (and gun violence in particular) for decades, if not more, with these and other archetypal characters – in literature, movies, television, and even music. It’s not just America that has these icons and archetypes, but among wealthy countries, I believe America is holding onto these the most, and celebrating these the most. Do you really disagree with any of this? If so, what part? I don’t understand what I’ve said that could possibly incite such a negative reaction from you, unless you’re just knee-jerk responding to straw men assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/166 "2019-05-13T18:23:46Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Mass shootings with legal full auto weapons are not rare. They do not happen. There are approximately 600,000 full auto weapons in civilians ownership and represent tens of thousands of dollars of investment each. It takes a year to pass a background check to purchase one IF you live in a state that allows them. **They are not, and should not be part of any discussion of gun control.** There is no relative difficulty. It is next to impossible for most to enter that playing field. The term “safe queen” fits those firearms best, rarely seeing the light of day. \ Pray tell, which guns can and should be part of the discussion? And what is the appropriate length of time after a shooting is it okay to have that discussion? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/167 "2019-05-13T18:23:59Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Mass shootings with legal full auto weapons are not rare. They do not happen. There are approximately 600,000 full auto weapons in civilians ownership and represent tens of thousands of dollars of investment each. It takes a year to pass a background check to purchase one IF you live in a state that allows them. They are not, and should not be part of any discussion of gun control. There is no relative difficulty. It is next to impossible for most to enter that playing field. The term “safe queen” fits those firearms best, rarely seeing the light of day. Thank you for helping to make my point. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/168 "2019-05-13T18:26:03Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Mass shootings with legal full auto weapons are not rare. They do not happen. There are approximately 600,000 full auto weapons in civilians ownership and represent tens of thousands of dollars of investment each. It takes a year to pass a background check to purchase one IF you live in a state that allows them. **They are not, and should not be part of any discussion of gun control.** There is no relative difficulty. It is next to impossible for most to enter that playing field. The term “safe queen” fits those firearms best, rarely seeing the light of day. Bolding mine. Perhaps they SHOULD be used as an example of how a class of weapons can be effectively removed from public use? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/169 "2019-05-13T18:30:57Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > What prevents it in other countries? One of the major factors is relative scarcity. There is such an incredible abundance of guns in the US, and they are so widely celebrated at gun shows, gun shops, and personal collections that they’re almost impossible to avoid. Whereas in most countries, a thief who breaks into a random person’s home is unlikely to find a gun there, whether locked or unlocked. … > As for bans and “confiscations”, you seem to be imagining a world where some very arrogant lawmakers impose gun restrictions, bans, or whatever, against the will of the people. That’s not how it works. As discussed below, the way it has to work is just the way it worked with tobacco: a gradual, incremental change in culture so that instead of gun worship, the culture evolves to one where people mostly just don’t want the dangerous nasty things around unless they absolutely need to have them. I really believe that the gun culture is on the wrong side of history. Sometimes, as with the health care debacle, the US is just a little slow in catching up with the rest of the world. > … > > You’re absolutely correct about the need for a massive culture change. But I think the culture change around tobacco smoking is encouraging evidence that it can be done, with the role of enlightened lawmakers being at least as much to promote and advance these changes as to actually legislate restrictions and prohibitions, though the two work together, with legislation gradually nudging the culture. > > Watch any movie or TV show from the 50s, say, and one is amazed at how much the tobacco culture has changed. Pretty much everybody smoked, and they smoked everywhere. Cigarettes were glorified as a sophisticated adult activity, they were advertised everywhere, and ad agencies made fortunes just from designing eye-catching cigarette packaging. > … > > Meanwhile, tobacco companies could no longer advertise, and they could no longer sponsor certain events (or in some cases, any events at all). … > > … My contention is that the gun culture, like the tobacco culture, will eventually be viewed as having been on the wrong side of history. Yes, that’s true, but there are still 300 Million guns in the USA, how do you propose to get rid of them? Even if people stop buying, that leaves 300 Million. The problem with this is that guns serve useful purposes: Hunting, sports (Several Olympic sports, and smoking has never been one), and of course home defense. Actually smoking is coming back in films. Big Tobacco is spending a lot in under the table bribes (or just having one of their non-tobacco branches pay) just to have smoking portrayed in films. I have posted links and cites but the incidence of smoking in film is going up again, not down. And of course Big Tobacco can still advertise in print media, like magazines, and they do so. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/170 "2019-05-13T18:32:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, I’m pretty sure you could lose the 2nd, or at least interpret it more tightly, and the safety/freedom trade off would be favorable. > > I’ve never heard anyone call for trashing the entire B of R just to dump the 2nd. I’ve heard of a few who would do so to dump the 1st. Benjamin Franklin: “_Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”_ Yes, and who do you trust to start meddling with the Bill of Rights? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/171 "2019-05-13T18:33:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think what \*\*DrDeth \*\*means is that there are some gun-control advocates who are hoping for a “one step back in order to make several steps forward” type of event. That while the killing of 500 people in one giant spree would be a tragedy, it might the long-awaited catalyst for major gun control that wouldn’t have been possible otherwise. Yep. and I did say a "few’. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/172 "2019-05-13T18:35:54Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Cigarettes aren’t used daily to terrorize the populace, either. Are you really terrorized? > **[Looking at the odds of dying in a mass shooting in the US, what makes you any...](https://www.quora.com/Looking-at-the-odds-of-dying-in-a-mass-shooting-in-the-US-what-makes-you-any-better-than-the-people-who-worry-about-terrorism-if-youre-concerned-about-it)** > > Answer (1 of 11): Nothing. Nothing at all. > > I grew up during the Cold War. You know, that period right after WWII. We were told, day and night, that the communists were going to attack us. We had “duck and cover” drills and Civil Defense drills to... “\*…an American’s lifetime odds of dying in a mass shooting committed in any location is 1 in 11,125; of dying in a car accident is 1 and 491; of drowning is 1 in 1,133; and of choking on food is 1 in 3,461)” There Is No ‘Epidemic of Mass School Shootings’ Out of some 330 million Americans: Between 3,000 and 49,000 die from the flu each year (+200,000 hospitalized)\*" ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/173 "2019-05-13T18:43:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are you really terrorized? > > [https://www.quora.com/Looking-at-the-odds-of-dying-in-a-mass-shooting-in-the-US-what-makes-you-any-better-than-the-people-who-worry-about-terrorism-if-youre-concerned-about-it](https://www.quora.com/Looking-at-the-odds-of-dying-in-a-mass-shooting-in-the-US-what-makes-you-any-better-than-the-people-who-worry-about-terrorism-if-youre-concerned-about-it) > “\*…an American’s lifetime odds of dying in a mass shooting committed in any location is 1 in 11,125; of dying in a car accident is 1 and 491; of drowning is 1 in 1,133; and of choking on food is 1 in 3,461)” There Is No ‘Epidemic of Mass School Shootings’ > > Out of some 330 million Americans: > > Between 3,000 and 49,000 die from the flu each year (+200,000 hospitalized)\*" Death is the leading cause of loss of life and just look at all the horrible ways in which you can die! What’s one more, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/174 "2019-05-13T18:45:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@Bone](#): > > > > I certainly agree there is gun culture in the US. I disagree with any non-objective assessment you’ve made regarding that culture. _“Celebrates and mythologizes violence, and in particular gun violence”_ Oh please. That’s on par with saying that gun control advocates have a culture of doing a blood dance celebrating the murder of children. I don’t think you realize how wildly off base and offensive it can be to portray others as mustache twirling villains who celebrate violence. > > That’s not what I said at all. That seems like exactly what you said. Here, this is what you said (my bold): > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > \*\*American culture is a gun culture – a culture that celebrates and mythologizes violence, and in particular gun violence. \*\* That’s the source of the problem of shootings – the ubiquity of guns makes shootings much easier, quite obviously, but it’s impossible to address this problem of guns being incredibly easy to access without massive changes in American culture. America as a culture will not accept any significant restrictions on the availability of their (our) precious guns. Maybe an example would add clarity for you. Do you think Planned Parenthood celebrates and mythologizes abortion? If someone were to say that Planned Parenthood celebrates abortions, and that dude, all women should have abortions all the time because they are great and super awesome! I think that would be pretty offensive. Planned Parenthood wants women to have control over their bodies, their reproductive health, their privacy. They don’t celebrate abortion, but they recognize it’s a medical procedure that should be available to women. Characterizing that as celebrating and mythologizing abortion is derogatory and demeaning. As you say, \*This is just the sort of silliness that prevents even the possibility of discussing this issue. \* ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/175 "2019-05-13T18:52:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That seems like exactly what you said. Here, this is what you said (my bold): I was talking about America as a whole. Not gun owners, not the NRA, not anything that should be considered derogatory or negative about any group except for the entirety of American culture. I went into detail in my later post about what I meant, which you haven’t addressed. What in those details of my critique of American culture, if any, do you disagree with? > [@](#): > > Maybe an example would add clarity for you. Do you think Planned Parenthood celebrates and mythologizes abortion? If someone were to say that Planned Parenthood celebrates abortions, and that dude, all women should have abortions all the time because they are great and super awesome! I think that would be pretty offensive. Planned Parenthood wants women to have control over their bodies, their reproductive health, their privacy. They don’t celebrate abortion, but they recognize it’s a medical procedure that should be available to women. Characterizing that as celebrating and mythologizing abortion is derogatory and demeaning. I can’t for the life of me tell how this is relevant to my assertion at all. If you said “American culture celebrates sex”, then that would be analogous, and I’d be interested to see what else you had to say on the subject. But a specific organization? That’s pretty much the opposite of what I said – I’m critiquing American culture as a whole. Certainly not any group or organization within it. > [@](#): > > As you say, \*This is just the sort of silliness that prevents even the possibility of discussing this issue. \* I’d really, really appreciate if you could respond to my specific and actual words, especially when I went into detail as to what I meant. Here it is again: It’s the whole American culture, from the very beginning – the frontier pioneer, the western/cowboy hero, the idealistic young man who volunteers in wartime and becomes a war hero, the grizzled cop who doesn’t play by the rules and gets the bad guys, and much more – these are all uniquely/iconically American archetypes, all of whom used deadly violence (usually with guns) in the service of decency, goodness, and American values (in the myth-making). The media and art has celebrated violence (and gun violence in particular) for decades, if not more, with these and other archetypal characters – in literature, movies, television, and even music. It’s not just America that has these icons and archetypes, but among wealthy countries, I believe America is holding onto these the most, and celebrating these the most. What part of this is “silliness”? Please, tell me in detail. I really, really want to know your thoughts on my words. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/176 "2019-05-13T19:01:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Benjamin Franklin: “_Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”_ But if you don’t believe that a constitutionally enshrined right to own a specific type of weapon is in any way an “essential liberty”, then that particular bit of oratory is not relevant. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and who do you trust to start meddling with the Bill of Rights? Me, for example. I certainly am not going to be scared off from rational consideration of the pros and cons of constitutional amendment by pompous blathering about the supposed hazard of violating the holy virginity of the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution, and we as a nation have been meddling with the Constitution for as long as it’s been in existence. There is nothing about Amendments 1 through 10 that is in any way exempt from the stated procedures for meddling that apply to the rest of the Constitution. The reason that some gun-rights-culture enthusiasts try to frighten people into believing that repeal of the 2nd Amendment is some kind of unthinkable desecration of the sacred Bill of Rights text is simply that they don’t want people to really start thinking about how archaic and counterproductive the 2nd Amendment has become. As I said, gun ownership is fine in and of itself, but there’s no intelligent reason nowadays to treat it as an inalienable fundamental right. I say let’s alienate it already and get on with managing gun ownership in a rational way, on a par with ownership of other dangerous but useful objects. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/177 "2019-05-13T19:07:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are you really terrorized? My son doesn’t drill multiple times a year to learn the right way to hide from smokers infiltrating the halls of his school. Me personally, I’m not terrorized, but then again, I don’t need to wield a firearm to feel safe. Maybe you should ask one of them people what they’re so frightened of. I mean, a good third of the country is so scared of other gun owners that they need to arm themselves for personal protection. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/178 "2019-05-13T19:07:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But if you don’t believe that a constitutionally enshrined right to own a specific type of weapon is in any way an “essential liberty”, then that particular bit of oratory is not relevant. > Me, for example. I certainly am not going to be scared off from rational consideration of the pros and cons of constitutional amendment by pompous blathering about the supposed hazard of violating the holy virginity of the Bill of Rights. > > The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution, and we as a nation have been meddling with the Constitution for as long as it’s been in existence. There is nothing about Amendments 1 through 10 that is in any way exempt from the stated procedures for meddling that apply to the rest of the Constitution… Well, see, I think all of the Bill or Rights are essential liberties. I dont trust you. Or anyone else. See, the only likely way to get the 2nd repealed is thru a new Constitutional Convention. And they wont stop with just repealing the 2nd. After all, we allow books like the Anarchist Cookbook to be printed and sold, yes? Radical hate groups can proselytize and recruit, true? Hard core criminals get away with the crimes due to constitutional protections, right? Maybe the Convention turns right wing, and disallows Abortion, and makes Christianity the Religion of the land. Too dangerous by far. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/179 "2019-05-13T19:08:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I was talking about America as a whole. Not gun owners, not the NRA, not anything that should be considered derogatory or negative about any group except for the entirety of American culture. I went into detail in my later post about what I meant, which you haven’t addressed. What in those details of my critique of American culture, if any, do you disagree with? That doesn’t make it any different, or any better as far as I can see. I disagree that _American culture is a gun culture – a culture that celebrates and mythologizes violence, and in particular gun violence._ You have these complaints that I’m not responding to what you’ve written, yet I keep copy and pasting what you’ve written. > [@](#): > > I can’t for the life of me tell how this is relevant to my assertion at all. If you said “American culture celebrates sex”, then that would be analogous, and I’d be interested to see what else you had to say on the subject. But a specific organization? That’s pretty much the opposite of what I said – I’m critiquing American culture as a whole. Certainly not any group or organization within it. I wouldn’t get hung up on the PP aspect of it. You can substitute PP for “american culture” and it’s the same. Do you think American Culture celebrates abortion? > [@](#): > > I’d really, really appreciate if you could respond to my specific and actual words, especially when I went into detail as to what I meant. Here it is again: Yeah, I’ve been doing that, by quoting you. _Celebrating and mythologizing violence_ is your phrase. What you describe could easily be expressed by saying that American culture recognizes that as a last resort there are times when violence is necessary, and while often tragic, is an important aspect of individual liberty as recognized in our founding documents. If you want to say there is a gun culture, fine I agree. But once you start editorializing, saying that culture celebrates and mythologizes violence, then no. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651/180 "2019-05-13T19:13:39Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Tobacco doesn’t have the same utility that firearms do. They provide individual benefit, but any single cigarette isn’t’ going to be life changing. Cigarettes aren’t used daily to defend the lives of the populace. Cigarettes aren’t a right guaranteed in the constitution. Cigarettes don’t last for over a hundred years. Basically, the comparison is not apt. > > But I take your point. When the CDC engaged in a propaganda campaign against firearms, they also analogized tobacco as a model to follow. It’s also quite apparent that the idea of going after gun culture is becoming more popular in gun control circles. It’s also why even small incremental forays need to be smashed and exposed for the ulterior motives that they represent. Tobacco is actually a very apt analogy because it does represent exactly the kind of culture shift required in the domain of guns, and similar kinds of pushback occurred. As with guns, tobacco advocates characterized it a pleasurable activity to which responsible adults were entitled, and do-gooders needed to mind their own business. As for having “utility” beyond that, for personal defense and so forth, I’m sure you’re aware of the vast body of statistics indicating that the utility is actually negative, in terms of the overall balance of risk/benefit tradeoff (and I’m not just referring to the controversial Kellerman studies). The conclusions are actually self-evident if one just looks at the dramatically lower rates of gun violence in every single advanced democracy on the planet. As for the constitutional matter, this is a whole different discussion that some would characterize as the biggest blunder the Founders ever made, and that was further aggravated by an astoundingly myopic interpretation by a conservative court in the _Heller_ ruling. But I can keep the discussion simpler. There is nothing in the constitution that prevents an evolving society from embracing the kind of culture change I’m describing, whose practical effect would be to make the second amendment nothing more than a curious anachronism, just like the one about quartering soldiers in your house. Such a situation would simply make the second amendment an anachronistic reminder that, as I said before, sometimes the US is a little slow in catching up to the rest of the world. Your last sentence is astonishing. Why would you want to “smash” cultural changes that are motivated by reason and a desire to reduce the tremendously high rate of gun carnage? The is probably the clearest statement I’ve yet seen of the desire for ideology to prevail over reason on this subject. And just to be clear, I’m not trying to characterize honest gun advocates as “mustache twirling villains” (though I question whether some, like the current NRA lobby, have any interest in honesty). The honest ones just embrace a misguided ideology and somehow are able to rationalize the experience of the rest of the world as irrelevant. From your standpoint as a libertarian I can see the attraction of self-sufficiency in personal defense, and the relative lack of priority given to the collective interests of the community. The ideological divide here is how much destructive power in the hands of an individual is appropriate and is a reasonable risk/benefit tradeoff, given the human condition and its propensity for anger and drunkenness and jealousy and revenge and all those other things I already talked about. The US stands absolutely alone among all advanced countries in having evolved a culture which says that “almost no limit” is a reasonable answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1-student-killed-7-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting/833651.md?page=10)