Oh, and, danceswithcats, go fuck yourself.
There are few things I find more tiresome than religionists squealing when someone protests their contempt for separation of church and state. :mad:
Just noticed that was post #666 for me. :rolleyes:
The National Register of Historic Places may disagree with you, at least on the definition of “recent”. Among it’s listings for Pennslyvania is the following:
The local government of Scranton lawfully owns and maintains a religous structure built in 1900. It’s possible that Hanover could do something similar for its 1890 religous structure.
GMRyujin, oh, O.K. ::chuckle::. It thought for a second that it was directed at me. I was thinking, “Jeez, I know I’m not an expert on historic property law in Pennsylvania or anything, but you didn’t have to go that far” ::chuckle::
Danceswithcats, keep us posted.
First of all, the term “Judeo-Christian” is just another word for Christian. Whatever is Judeo-Christian is, by definition, not Jewish but Christian, period.
Secondly, no, this country was not founded on any religious values whatsoever and consciously so. There is not a word in the US Constitution which derives from any religious value and certainly not from the Ten Commandments.
Third, any endorsement of monotheism on state owned prperty is a violation of the establishment clause. The government cannot endorse a statement that “I am the Lord thy God” or that “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Nor can the state forbid or endorse a statement forbidding the worship of “graven images” nor can the state forbid or endorse a statement forbidding taking the lord’s name in vain. All of those statements piss in the face of other religions and in the faces of non-theists.
The monument is a technical violation of the first amendment and that’s that.
One more thing- the Declaration of Independence is completely irrelevant to us Law. It has no legal authority. Our law is founded on the Constitution, which deliberately and consciously omitted any reference to magic sky pixies and does not claim any religious authority or source for its precepts. So you can take your “Creator” cite and pound it up your ass.
The OP is wrong. The monument should be removed.
Most likely, the monument was donated by the Eagles the same time they donated the one in my hometown (and the one in the town I went to college in, and the ones in dozens of towns across the nation). Many of them were donated to coincide with the release of the movie “The Ten Commandments”.
Yup. Hollywood gimmick.
The monument has no place on public property unless it passes the Lemon test, which I highly doubt it does.
Shit. This part should have been addressed to ames Carrol, not Duffer. Please disregard the proctological advice, Duff.
Words from an extortion letter to a king that are not part of the US Constitution and have no force of law.
Fuck you fucking religious zealots that think you’re fucking above the law. Boo fucking hoo. Too goddamn bad you can’t have your religious monuments on public land. If you don’t like it I invite you to go found your own fucking country and base it on your religion. Like Diogenes said, The US was founded on the constitution and does mention any deity at all. No the Declaration of independence does not count because it is not the basis for our laws. So all you religious zealots can go fuck yourselves.
Wow, a true lesson in tolerance.
DtC apologizing to me? Shit! Now I have to cancels tomorrow’s golf date to prepare for the locusts!
The end is near!!! 
Actually I am vey tolerant. I just don’t like assholes trying to shove their way of life down other people’s throats.
And what exactly are the atheists and the ACLU trying to do?
I missed the part about the Fraternal Order of the Eagles on my initial reading of the O.P. After doing a little googling, it does seem that the monument was donated in the late fifties. A picture of it can be found here. It’s hardly the historic First Church of Christ, Scientist I mentioned in an earlier post.
Normally, I side against organizations like the Americans for Seperation of Church and State when they campaign for the removal of existing structures. These organizations seem peopled by hateful zealots like denis and xan who can’t see that the oligarchy they are fighting so nobly against doesn’t exist, just as denis and zan can’t see that the only zealots in this thread are themselves. But, as petty and/or paranoid as I think these organizations are, I’m going to have to adnit that they’re probably right here. The monument is not historic, it adds little to the value of the park, and the Writs stipulated in their original gift of the park that nothing was to be built on the land except a library or burough hall. The marker is obviously neither (though I think you might get away with calling it “landscaping”, as it’s quite small). Simply put: the monument does not pass the lemon test.
It should be moved.
Though I have to admit, I would find it highly ironic if the courts decide to let the land surrounding the monument be sold to a private entity, who then furnishes it with spotlights to make it much more visible that it is now. It would be an ironic slap in the face to those petty enough to view a three foot tall movie ad on public land as a state established religion.
Here’s what happens. I see that his post is the last one. I think about quoting it. I remember all the bitching about people quoting the post directly above them, so I decide not to. I type out my response and click Submit Reply and, when the page loads, 20,000 people have responded in the minute it took me to type. Can’t win for losin’.
Oh wow! I’ve been condescended to and branded a “hateful zealot” by A Monkey With A Gun!
Hey Monkey, can you do anything but fling feces with your gun? Do you have anything substantive to say about my posting here besides branding me a “hateful zealot?”
My “hateful zealotry” includes substantial contributions to religious charities that, in my opinion, do good work for people and leave the “God talk” alone, unless someone asks about it. You know (or more likely, you don’t), respect and love for other people.
Yes, in my Gawdless, Atheistic Hateful Zealotry, I have given time and resources to church-run foodbanks and homeless shelters. All with the goal of destroying religion and demoralizing religionists.
Monkey, you are one stupid little being. I hope you learn better than to brand someone a “hateful zealot” because they simply support one of the founding principles of this nation. I won’t hold my breath, though. It’s been my experience that people like you don’t come to their senses unless forced to by extraordinary circumstances.
PA isn’t the only state with the FOE monument under fire.
http://www.duluth.com/placed/index.php?sect_rank=1&story_id=168217
http://wcco.com/localnews/local_story_043082608.html
Note the 2nd link. The monument was donated in 1957 and there are now 38 people that want it gone. Why wasn’t it a problem over the last 47 years? It seems to me Duluth isn’t sufferring any harmful consequences. I’ve been there often and my Godparents live there. (Oh no! Godparents. Now I get it)
Now then, 38 people want the monument gone. 38!!! Hmmm…let’s just see how many are not in on this fight for liberty.
http://www.visitduluth.com/general/duluth_facts.php
Wow! 87,000 citizens! And 38 want the monument gone. Talk about forcing a belief system down an unwilling throat!
38 against 86,962.
Yup, sounds like community standards win out every time.
The First Amendment is not subject to popular referendums. For example, it isl illegal to teach the truth of Islam in a public school even if the school is 100% Muslim and not a single person objects. The government is not allowed to endorse a specific religious belief. The popularity of that belief is of no consequence. “Tyranny of the majority” and all that.
duffer, just blow it out, would you?
My sincerest apologies. You are incorrect in asserting that I do not learn from mistakes, however. From now on, I solemnly swear to remember that posters who respond to a civil OP’er with little more than “go fuck yourself” are not hateful or angry, but rather they are respectful, loving people who never jump to conclusions, never denigrate other viewpoints, and give their time and money to kitten orphanages on the weekends.
Huh? 