# 10 commandments **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2000, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945 "2000-03-30T23:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/61 "2000-04-06T12:52:00Z")
MKM, would you mind stating exactly what the “homosexual agenda” is that you are so dead set against? I seem to have left my copy behind at the last meeting I attended of the S.H.A.T.(Secret Homosexual Agenda Tribunal). 🙂 * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trout_Mask_Replica)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/62 "2000-04-06T13:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by slythe: > **MKM, would you mind stating exactly what the “homosexual agenda” is that you are so dead set against?** I seem to remember **Satan** posted it hereabouts not so long ago. A search should uncover it if you’re lucky. 🙂 Anyway, I don’t think it’s any more harmful for a Christian to know that there are people that are perfectly happy being gay as it is for an Orthodox Jew to know that are people who like eating ham. * * * **TMR** _If you believed in yourself, and tore enough holes in your pants, there was always a mist-filled alley right around the corner._ ---
**Author:** ![MKM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@MKM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MKM)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/63 "2000-04-06T13:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by slythe: > > MKM, would you mind stating exactly what the “homosexual agenda” is that you are so dead set against? I’m speaking of the agenda to get things like those silly books like “Sally has two Mommies” or “Johnny has two Daddies” or whatever they are put into elementary schools to teach kids that homosexuality is “normal”. I’m talking about in Jr. and Sr. High health classes teaching about “following your feelings” if you seem pulled to that lifestyle. I’m talking about those same health classes in more radical cases actually teaching homosexual sex in sex-ed. Am I homophobic? No. I’ll tell you something here that I have never told at LBMB… I was once involved in that lifestyle as a bisexual. From my early teens to my early 20’s. I know how harmful the lifestyle can be and how kids can get sucked into it because of people with an agenda telling them it’s OK. Well, I found out the hard way (I was drugged and raped by another guy) how harmful it can be. If you want to know more on my opinions please email me. Otherwise, lets drop this here and take it back to the OP. * * * “We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 † ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/64 "2000-04-06T13:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > With all due respect Clark K, if you go back and read my posts - they were directly related to the moral aspect of the 10 Comandments, and not on the religious aspect. I would still like to hear the reasons why “don’t take the Christian’s God’s name in vain”, “don’t worship any God besides the one who led the Jews out of Egypt” and “don’t work on Saturday” are good universal moral laws. Somehow I doubt that even the Christians who want the 10c posted would generally agree that working on Saturday is a universal moral wrong and is a major factor in the “decline of our youth”. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/65 "2000-04-06T13:48:00Z")
Incidentally, there is a pretty good thread dealing with 10 Commandments posting over in the archive (I just put it there). Among other things, it addresses the problem of _which_ 10 Commandments should be posted when people say they want to post 'em. [http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000008/HTML/20000406-7-000045.html](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000008/HTML/20000406-7-000045.html) ---
**Author:** ![MKM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@MKM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MKM)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/66 "2000-04-06T13:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Trout Mask Replica: > > Anyway, I don’t think it’s any more harmful for a Christian to know that there are people that are perfectly happy being gay as it is for an Orthodox Jew to know that are people who like eating ham. Funny, I don’t remember ham being part of the 10 Commandments… * * * “We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 † ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/67 "2000-04-06T13:59:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Funny, I don’t remember ham being part of the 10 Commandments… Um, neither is “thou shalt not boff persons of one’s own sex,” so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here… ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/68 "2000-04-06T14:00:00Z")
(Well, unless you count “thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s ass…”) ::d&r:: ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/69 "2000-04-06T15:01:00Z")
**MKM** wrote: > [@](#): > > … evolution taught in public schools is a fact that will not change. I dissagree with it, but I also have the responsibility as a parent that my children know what the Bible says about it also. Not posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a fact that will not change. If you disagree with it, you have the responsibility as a parent that your children know what the Bible says about it also. I believe this has been the point all along. > [@](#): > > First, I have not done that - I have given an oposing view. No, the only thing you said was, after **The Ryan** , **Gaudere** , **Trout Mask Replica** , and **Quadell** all refuted your advice to “just look away” (and I’ll quote you here): > [@](#): > > I honestly don’t see why there is such fear of 10 statements posted on a wall there is free choice of whether or not to view them, much less live by them. That didn’t answer any of the questions or points they specifically posed to you on that topic. That’s not debating, that’s “Well, I don’t really want to get into my untenable position with you, so instead of actually addressing your questions and responses to my statements, I’ll either ignore them or just restate my belief, 'cause I know I’m right.” **Trout Mask Replica** wrote: > [@](#): > > I seem to remember Satan posted {the gay agenda} hereabouts not so long ago. A search should uncover it if you’re lucky. Here is [the gay agenda](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001254.html) in Great Debates (which isn’t much about gay agendas at all), and here is the humorous [The Homosexual Agenda](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001948.html) in MPSIMS. More useful conversations can be found in [The ethics of homosexuality](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001348.html) or even [What the f\*ck is wrong with these homophobic bigots?](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000630.html) in the Pit, which garnered some surprisingly bright discussion. There are several other threads elsewhere on SDMB. **MKM wrote** : > [@](#): > > I’m speaking of the agenda to get things like those silly books like “Sally has two Mommies” or “Johnny has two Daddies” or whatever they are put into elementary schools to teach kids that homosexuality is “normal”. Hmmm, well, let’s see - if those books are in the library, surely no one is _forcing_ anyone to read them. And by being there, the school isn’t _endorsing_ any kind of lifestyle. Sound familiar? And although I really want to respond to your “teaching gay sex in high school” comments, this isn’t the proper forum - the closest one I could find was [gay clubs in elementary schools](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001147.html). We could take it up there if you like. **Gaudere** wrote: > [@](#): > > I would still like to hear the reasons why “don’t take the Christian’s God’s name in vain”, “don’t worship any God besides the one who led the Jews out of Egypt” and “don’t work on Saturday” are good universal moral laws. As would I. Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![MKM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@MKM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MKM)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/70 "2000-04-06T15:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Gaudere: > > Um, neither is “thou shalt not boff persons of one’s own sex,” so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here… It was supposed to be a subtle attempt to get this thing back on topic…maybe a little too subtle. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Esprix: > > Not posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a fact that will not change. If you disagree with it, you have the responsibility as a parent that your children know what the Bible says about it also. I believe this has been the point all along. To the first part, not true - they are posted in schools and classrooms throughout the country. Each school in Allentown, PA has them in their library among a collage of other historical documents. Schools here in my own county have them posted on the classroom wall in many classrooms. To the second point, yes, you are completely correct from a religious viewpoint, but from a moral standpoint, which has been my perspective here all along, I see no problem with them in a public setting. That is my view point and it disagrees with yours and so be it. I have never come in here and said I am right and you are wrong. I said this is my opinion and I, personally, will stick to my values. I did not say anyone had to agree with me. On the other hand, what I seem to get from most of the rest here is that I _should_ agree with them because I am completely wrong. Wouldn’t be much of a debate, then would it 🙂 As for the gay agenda stuff, It doesn’t belong here. But, quickly, as to those books - the problem is that in NYC schools, they weren’t just in the library, they were assigned reading to elementary school students. And that, my friend, borders on indoctrination. I have never said that I want the 10 Commandments taught, only that I see no harm in them being posted on a wall. * * * “We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 † ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/71 "2000-04-06T16:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > On the other hand, what I seem to get from most of the rest here is that I should agree with them because I am completely wrong. With all respect, I think that’s a mistaken impression, **MKM**. > [@](#): > > I have never said that I want the 10 Commandments taught, only that I see no harm in them being posted on a wall. Again, can we then also display the Pillars of Islam on the walls as well? And excerpts from the Talmud and the Book of Mormon? How about writings from the Satanic Bible? It’s not hurting anyone, it’s just posted up on the wall, right? -andros- ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/72 "2000-04-06T18:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **MKM** : > > To the first part, not true - they are posted in schools and classrooms throughout the country. Each school in Allentown, PA has them in their library among a collage of other historical documents. Schools here in my own county have them posted on the classroom wall in many classrooms. I believe, if you’d actually read some of these posts, that we all agree that the 10 Commandments, in context with other historical documents, is perfectly acceptable to _have_ in school. It is posting them as “the moral code the school wants you to follow”, or even the implication of such by having them posted when no others are, that is the issue. And if your county’s schools have them posted as such, you can bet your sweet bippy it’s only a matter of time before they come down. Where the heck do you live, anyway? > [@](#): > > To the second point, yes, you are completely correct from a religious viewpoint, but from a moral standpoint, which has been my perspective here all along, I see no problem with them in a public setting. And once again, as you seem to not be getting the point that _the first four Commandments are Christian-specific._ > [@](#): > > I said this is my opinion and I, personally, will stick to my values. No one is expecting you to do less, just as we will stick to ours. Unfortunately, in this specific instance, the law is quite clearly on our side - doesn’t mean anything morally, but legally, that list is not getting posted in my child’s classroom - **period**. Have you considered homeschooling? > [@](#): > > … the problem is that in NYC schools, they weren’t just in the library, they were assigned reading to elementary school students. I’m moving your quote to another thread so I can respond and we can discuss this further. Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, [Asketh the damn Priest Guy!](http://www.askjesus.org/ask.cgi?http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html)) ---
**Author:** ![Keenan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b2d939/32.png) [@Keenan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keenan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/73 "2000-04-06T18:43:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by MKM: > > I have never said that I want the 10 Commandments taught, only that I see no harm in them being posted on a wall. Okay, then we’ll reverse the question. What are the benefits of having the Ten Commandments posted on a wall? If these benefits could be gained by a secular set of rules, why not just post those? If the benefits stem from the religious nature of the Commandments, then this becomes a case of crossing the church/state boundary. Public schools can be a source of moral education, and in fact they are. Play nice. Respect your teacher. Work hard to succeed. I balk at making them a place of religious education. The impetus behind posting the Ten Commandments is clearly a religious one. That’s why I’m opposed to it – not because I think the Commandments are bad rules, but because they are put forth as a religious solution to our social ills. ---
**Author:** ![MKM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@MKM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MKM)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/74 "2000-04-06T19:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Esprix: > > It is posting them as “the moral code the school wants you to follow”, or even the implication of such by having them posted when no others are, that is the issue. And if your county’s schools have them posted as such, you can bet your sweet bippy it’s only a matter of time before they come down. Where the heck do you live, anyway? And where have I said that desire to have them posted as “the moral code the school wants you to follow”? I never said that. I said I believe they are a good moral code and that I don’t see a problem with them being posted. Not that the school should be posting them as “the rule”. BTW, I live in the heart of the “Bible Belt” - Alabama and have for the past 10 years. I was raised in the more liberal northeast, in PA, if that matters any. > [@](#): > > And once again, as you seem to not be getting the point that the first four Commandments are Christian-specific. Actually they are Jewish and Christian-secific, but that’s only a minor sticking point, now, isn’t it. Take them away and we don’t have the 10 Commandments, do we. Let me ask, You have a problem with having the 10 commandments even being posted, and not even taught. Do you have a problem with the Magna Carta being taught? Rather than quote parts of it, [Here is a link](http://historymedren.about.com/education/historymedren/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/magnacarta.htm) to it so that you can read all of the mentions of that Christiab God. How about the Mayflower Compact? Again, [here is a link](http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/D/1601-1650/plymouth/compac.htm) for you to see it chocked full of a Christian message. Now these are even more important historical documents and are full of the mention of the Christian God. I guess these shouldn’t be taught or even seen by public school students? > [@](#): > > Have you considered homeschooling? Absolutely, if the public school that my children will attend (they are only 4 and 2) degrades its curriculum to something I deem unfit for my children, yes we probably will home school. Fortunately, that school disctrict is considered one of the best in the entire area, and I know many of the teachers and the principal who are all Christian. \ > [@](#): > > I’m moving your quote to another thread so I can respond and we can discuss this further. Care to share a link with me? > [@](#): > > Originally posted by andros: > > Again, can we then also display the Pillars of Islam on the walls as well? And excerpts from the Talmud and the Book of Mormon? ## Sure, why not. I doubt they’ll matter much to anyone since less than one percent of the US population fall under those faiths. “We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 † ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/75 "2000-04-06T19:44:00Z")
More than 1% of the US population is Jewish, Muslim and Mormon, Mike. And I would like to know, why post religious-specific moral rules when they are not good as univerally applicable moral rules? Why not just pick some moral rules that are _not_ specific to one particular religion _and_ can apply to everyone? And seriously, do you really think simply posting a list of “do’s and don’t’s” will do much to help our kids? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/76 "2000-04-06T20:27:00Z")
**MKM** , I think you need to go back to the schools we’re discussing, since your reading comprehension skills seem to be lacking. I wrote: > [@](#): > > It is posting them as “the moral code the school wants you to follow”, **or even the implication of such by having them posted when no others are** , that is the issue. {emphasis mine} You responded: > [@](#): > > I said I believe they are a good moral code and that I don’t see a problem with them being posted. Not that the school should be posting them as “the rule”. Posting a piece of paper in the front of a classroom with the Ten Commandments listed on it is a violation of the separation of church and state _for the very reason that it would be a **clear implication** that that list is endorsed by that school._ Which part of that didn’t you understand? > [@](#): > > I was raised in the more liberal northeast, in PA, if that matters any. {Looking around his Radnor, Pennsylvania workplace} Yeah, Bleeding Heartsville around here. :rolleyes: I wrote: > [@](#): > > Actually they are Jewish and Christian-secific, but that’s only a minor sticking point, now, isn’t it. Take them away and we don’t have the 10 Commandments, do we. Pardon my lack of specificness - Judeo-Christian-specific. It doesn’t change my point one bit - the Ten Commandments are a religious document. > [@](#): > > Do you have a problem with the Magna Carta being taught? … How about the Mayflower Compact? … Now these are even more important historical documents and are full of the mention of the Christian God. I guess these shouldn’t be taught or even seen by public school students? {sigh} Once again, try _reading_ some of the posts in this thread. I already said: > [@](#): > > I believe, if you’d actually read some of these posts, that **we all agree that the 10 Commandments, in context with other historical documents, is perfectly acceptable to have in school…** {emphasis mine} So, yes, I _want_ the Ten Commandments taught in schools **as an historical document** and **in an historical context**. I do **not** want it posted at the front of my child’s classroom, nor do I want it extoled as a moral code of conduct - if I so choose, I can do that at home. > [@](#): > > Fortunately, that school disctrict is considered one of the best in the entire area, and I know many of the teachers and the principal who are all Christian. \ Please do not mistake my vehemence on the separation of church and state to be any kind of a slam against Christians. I respect Christianity as a viable religious theology, and I respect Christians for the good people that they are. Do I have problems with it? Of course I do. But that has nothing to do with the legal matters at hand. > [@](#): > > Care to share a link with me? Sure, when I start it. The board’s been wonky all afternoon. > [@](#): > > I doubt they’ll matter much to anyone since less than one percent of the US population fall under those faiths. So the Ten Commandments wouldn’t matter much to anyone who wasn’t Christian? Kind of flies in the face of your “it’s a good moral code for everyone to follow” reasoning to have it in the schools in the first place. Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, [Asketh the damn Priest Guy!](http://www.askjesus.org/ask.cgi?http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html)) ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/77 "2000-04-06T20:32:00Z")
Well of course, that will solve _everything_. I mean, just tell kids not to steal, murder, etc., and all the problems in the world will be solved. Jeez, it’s so obvious. Complex problems demand simple-minded solutions! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/78 "2000-04-06T21:51:00Z")
And just to lighten the mood: [www.theonion.com/onion3612/wdyt\_3612.html](http://www.theonion.com/onion3612/wdyt_3612.html) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/79 "2000-04-06T21:55:00Z")
I thought we’d agreed on the 85% number, Mike? Where are you getting the “less than one percent” thing? -andros- There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2000, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945/80 "2000-04-07T23:59:00Z")
And then there’s this niggling thing called the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. While the courts are still arguing over the minor details of what it means, the broad outlines are pretty clear: the Federal, state, and local governments, and governmentally-funded entities, aren’t supposed to be taking sides in matters of religion, giving an edge to one faith, denomination, or religious point of view over another. I think this is important for two reasons: one, I think it’s an important protection of minorities against bullying majority faiths, and two, as a Christian, I feel that I don’t need a government subsidy to spread God’s message. And shame on Christians who do. Now if you pass a law to post the Ten Commandments in schools, in a privileged place where representatives of other faiths aren’t free to post their Eightfold Paths, Five Pillars, or whatnot, then that’s the government’s taking sides, pure and simple. When it’s put like this, it seems to me that the only remaining argument for posting the Ten Commandments is: well, the government _ought_ to favor Christianity. But that’s exactly what the First Amendment bans. QED. Mike, any response? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-commandments/17945.md?page=5)