# 10% of people are homosexual. What the hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2004, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066 "2004-02-25T08:31:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/21 "2004-02-25T17:28:16Z")
1 in 200? Did anybody check the closets? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/22 "2004-02-25T17:33:50Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > There is also the theory that provides that animals without offspring of their own are free to assist in the raising of the offspring of their siblings or others who share at least some portion of their genetic makeup, thus helping to ensure that some of the genes that animal possesses pass on to future generations. This could certainly include one or more of the genes required to produce homosexual orientation. Has this ever been demonstrated in humans? I hear the theory a lot, but I have never seen any evidence that gay people are more involved in child care than straights in any society. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/23 "2004-02-25T17:44:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Did anybody check the closets? I found Jimmy Hoffa! In a dress! Seriously though… Lots of good examples have already been mentioned as to why it is so difficult to quantify homosexuality in the current social climate. Do we only count those who self-identify? Do we count everyone who has ever had even one sexual encounter with someone of the same sex? Do we hire some geeks to come up with Google-esque algorithms to help us extrapolate into the deep dark closet? Or another set of equations to account for the social and cultural stigma that may discourage people from ever even exploring the possibility that they might be gay…so they can even answer a pollster in an informed manner? I am interested in quantifying the proportion of us gay folks out there in the world, but we humans have a lot of work to do before we can hope for any sort of valid data. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/24 "2004-02-25T17:45:44Z")
" I hear the theory a lot, but I have never seen any evidence that gay people are more involved in child care than straights in any society." Well, there’s no particular reason they need to be directly involved in child care for the theory to work. They just need to engage in any activity that helps the family/tribe as a whole, e.g. hunting. The key point being that it’s the reproduction of the _genes_ that’s important, not of the individuals. E.g. ants, which have large segments of their population that are completely sterile (though that’s not 100% determined by genetics.) ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/25 "2004-02-25T18:03:31Z")
> [@jdbeatty](#): > > …a sexual species cannot be propagated by only one gender (even if both exist in the same organism). It sure can. The females of many reptile and amphibian species, for instance, can replicate through a process called _parthenogenesis_. In essence, she is cloning herself, in the absence of males. Humans can’t do this outside of a laboratory, of course, but it’s fairly common in lower animals. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/26 "2004-02-25T18:40:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Has this ever been demonstrated in humans? I hear the theory a lot, but I have never seen any evidence that gay people are more involved in child care than straights in any society. Neither have I, but they wouldn’t have to be for the argument to hold. An “altruistic” model of homosexuality could have developed as an early adaptation of pack-oriented early humans or proto-humans and become a conservative or neutral trait that carried over into modern populations. For social carnivores like wolves, which generally operate in at least loosely related groups and where generally only the most dominant animals breed, kin selection would seem to be a natural explanation for the behavior of non-breeding animals. In thinking humans or proto-humans, with the ability to reproduce year-round and thus do an end around any dominant hiearchical figure(s) ( which couldn’t possibly police available females 24/7, 365 days a year ), homosexuality _may_ have been an additional insurance policy that helped with the successful raising of a next generation in times of relative resource scarcity. Maybe. But regardless, modern child-raising patterns need not have anything to do with it. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/27 "2004-02-25T18:50:59Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > but it seems obvious that a genetic propensity to have sex with your own gender reduces an individual’s chances for reproduction. As noted above, the theory is that gays can assist in the propogation of their relatives’ genes. This strategy wouldn’t even need to be very effective to still produce results. For a gay person, having a niece or nephew achieve reproductive age is as successful an evolutionary outcome as having a grandchild is for us breeders\* – and it can be achieved at much cheaper cost. –Cliffy - This is true because, on average, children get half their genes from each parent, and siblings share half their genes. Therefore, a gay uncle shares on average 25% of his genes with his nephew, as does a grandfather with his grandson. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Griffin)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/28 "2004-02-25T19:14:01Z")
It is about 10%. Definitely not 1 in 200! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Griffin)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/29 "2004-02-25T19:16:58Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > As noted above, the theory is that gays can assist in the propogation of their relatives’ genes. This strategy wouldn’t even need to be very effective to still produce results. For a gay person, having a niece or nephew achieve reproductive age is as successful an evolutionary outcome as having a grandchild is for us breeders\* – and it can be achieved at much cheaper cost. > > –Cliffy > > - This is true because, on average, children get half their genes from each parent, and siblings share half their genes. Therefore, a gay uncle shares on average 25% of his genes with his nephew, as does a grandfather with his grandson. That may be true but if the gay uncle didnt exist the child could still have the same genes. The gay uncle has nothing to do with what genes any child gets. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/30 "2004-02-25T19:27:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Has this ever been demonstrated in humans? I hear the theory a lot, but I have never seen any evidence that gay people are more involved in child care than straights in any society. In addition to what others have said, I would add that it’s only very recently in human history that the concept of “homosexual” as a separate and distinct social identity has existed. The word itself dates back only to the 1860s. This is not to say that there were not people who prior to the coinage of the word who were not possessed of a homosexual orientation, just that there was no social construct. Rather than “homosexual” they were the “spinster aunt” or the “extra man” or “confirmed bachelor” without a sexual identity. Those people undoubtedly did contribute to the raising of the offspring of siblings. When the “immorality” associated with homsexual sex acts transferred by association to people of a homosexual orientation, society began to consider it “dangerous” for children to be around gay people and so the participation of gay adults in the raising of their siblings’ offspring undoubtedly decreased. This societal attitude persists through the lies told by anti-gay people and organizations and is sometimes codified (as in Florida’s ban on gay adoption and various court rulings stripping custody from gay parents) and is frequently exploited as a reason for denying gay rights (as in the excuse given that marriage is for procreation or Anita Bryant’s naming her group “Save Our Children”). ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/31 "2004-02-25T20:08:41Z")
Typed by **The Griffin** : > [@](#): > > The gay uncle has nothing to do with what genes any child gets. Some of the child’s genes are the gay uncle’s own, and by contributing to the potential survival/reproduction of the child, the gay uncle contributes to the potential survival/reproduction of those shared genes. ---
**Author:** ![labmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f19dbf/32.png) [@labmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/labmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/32 "2004-02-25T21:05:55Z")
I think this is very difficult to ascertain. I know many women who have had a sexual experience with another woman, but would in no way consider themselves lesbian or even bisexual. I think the 1-3% figure is only in regard to _exclusive_ homosexuality. I’d say teh tweeners would be just about impossible to quantify. Kinsey’s study was way off. His data was skewed , he used young men who had been in reformatories and prisons as subjects, and counted them as homosexual, even if it was only when they were in an all male environment, and exhibited no homosexual behaviour outside of jail. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/33 "2004-02-25T21:26:37Z")
This is more of a debate than anything, so I’ll move this thread to GD. bibliophage moderator GQ ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/34 "2004-02-25T22:13:32Z")
One reason why homosexuality is believe to have a genetic component is from the studies of twins. In sets of identical male twins, when one is homosexual, there is a significantly higher rate of homosxuality in the other twin than there is in fraternal male twins, when one fraternal twin is homosexual. Yet, there is not a 100% correlation in homosexuality among identical twins; in fact, fewer than half show a correlation. So, there are probably also non-genetic factors in determining one’s sexual orientation. As to why any such genetic trait for male homosexuality would not be bred out of humans, given the low numbers of male homosexuals who have offspring: it may be a sex-linked genetic trait like hemophilia, which although expressed in males, is carried by females. Until recent times, hemophiliacs rarely survived to adulthood to reproduce, but their sisters carried the hemophilia genetic factor on into their sons. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/35 "2004-02-25T22:30:46Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > The best estimates say about 3% of the population of men define themselves as Gay. 1% of the population of women defines themselves as Lesbian. Ive known over 100 women who were lesbian, so the 1% “could” be true, esp since not all women I knew who might have been admitted it to me. Ive never personally known a single gay male, so that 3% sounds high to me. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/36 "2004-02-25T22:33:33Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > I live in a relatively liberal city, so there are probably more “out” gay folk than in some other places, and I work in a place with about 60 or 70 employees on my shift. Of these, there are five gay men and three lesbians _that I know of_. There may well be other, closeted ones. This fits roughly with the 10% figure. Same here – my department at work consists of roughly 40 people, and there are five fully out gays/lesbians here, so we’re talking even better than 10%. Hmmm…On preview, I noticed your Sydney location…our company has a Syndey office. I wonder… ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/37 "2004-02-25T22:35:43Z")
Oh geez, Great Debates? Well, it was interesting while it lasted. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HomerIU](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HomerIU](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HomerIU)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/38 "2004-02-25T22:36:29Z")
Based on my lifelong study of porno films, for women who weight less than 120 pounds and have a size 36 or greater chest, the figure is about 100%. Also, a strong correlation exists between a job as a delivery man and living in a sorority and being homosexual, or at least bisexual. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/39 "2004-02-25T22:41:46Z")
My god, **HomerIU**! I think you’re onto something. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066/40 "2004-02-25T23:13:09Z")
> [@](#): > > **Susanann** : Ive known over 100 women who were lesbian, so the 1% “could” be true, esp since not all women I knew who might have been admitted it to me. Ive never personally known a single gay male, so that 3% sounds high to me. How in the world can our experiences be so different? I’ve known only a handful 😉 of Lesbians and probably about 100 homosexual men. > [@](#): > > **Arturius** : I dunno, going by feeling I probably see one gay in every 200 people, and I work in a relativly funky nightclub, so Ive met quite a few gays and like to think I can pick them. How can you tell? > [@](#): > > **Arturius** : Im straight, but I love that show. One statement does not contradict the other. I’m straight and I love that show too. I think that it is fascinating! > [@](#): > > **Otto** : Rather than “homosexual” they were the “spinster aunt” or the “extra man” or “confirmed bachelor” without a sexual identity. And there are always the “spinster aunts” who are simply unclaimed treasures or who are single by choice. And there are still “confirmed bachelors” who don’t meet the right woman for them or decide not to marry for other reasons. I always took the 10% figure as gospel and appreciate being required to do some thinking on the matter. One question for those of you who are absolutely certain that you are heterosexual: Were you born that way or was that shaped by your environment? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-of-people-are-homosexual-what-the-hell/231066.md?page=3)