# 10 years after the "looming crisis in human genetics" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236 "2019-12-01T14:16:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/121 "2019-12-12T20:34:56Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > No, the most common racial categories have to do with continent population, Black - Africa, White -Europe, Asian- Asia, Amerindian-Americas, Australia - Aboriginals. Ashkenazis would be a sub category like ethnic group. OK, so what is the difference between race and ethnic group? Because the definitions seem to have a lot of overlap. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/122 "2019-12-12T20:40:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > No, the most common racial categories have to do with continent population, Black - Africa, White -Europe, Asian- Asia, Amerindian-Americas, Australia - Aboriginals. Ashkenazis would be a sub category like ethnic group. As has already been said, there are groups within “Black” that are more closely related in terms of genetic ancestry to groups in the “White” and/or “Asian” categories than to various other far-flung “Black” groups. If Black Somalis, for example, are on average more closely related to non-Black Yemenis than to Black Namibians, by what basis does it make sense to group Somalis and Namibians together, but Somalis separate from Yemenis? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/123 "2019-12-12T20:44:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m going to repeat the thing I said in those old threads: > > What would it even matter? > > Let’s say, hypothetically, we had entirely fair IQ tests, could eliminate the different effects of environment etc etc and therefore could conclude with all certainty that group A has a lower IQ, on average, than group B. > > From a scientific point of view, it’s not a very important or useful observation. It’s about as useful as knowing that Spanish men have on average bigger noses than Italians, with considerable overlap and no particular inferences we could make about individuals or outliers (we could not assume, for example, that the man with the very biggest nose would be Spanish). > > This supposedly super important observation is only of interest to bigots, who will pay lip service to “on average” but really wish to believe that their tribe is superior to some other tribe. It would go a long way in explaining disparities in academic outcomes and the argument for trying to achieve equality of results would be greatly diminished. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/124 "2019-12-12T21:13:30Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The policy implications would probably be to have more affirmative action in college admissions and high intelligence job recruitment. Addressing inequality and poverty would seem to be an inefficient way to target the intelligent portion and I don’t think we know how to do that. I don’t see how reparations would help. I feel exactly the opposite. If we as a society are missing out on all that potential, we ought to change the conditions that made all that potential wither on the vine. Improve public education, have better safety net programs, focus on improving the “environment” in which these kids are raised. Affirmative action on the other hand does very little to help actualize their potential it tries to equalize results without actually equalizing the results. What good does it do to have businesses hire underqualified black employees. Much better to create an environment where they can achieve their potential. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/125 "2019-12-12T23:43:33Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Also, what there **aren’t** - and this is directly relevant to the subject - are sufficient genetic similarities to assume that they can be grouped together. Of course, that too - thanks for pointing the so-obvious-even-I-missed-it :o ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/126 "2019-12-13T00:31:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I feel exactly the opposite. If we as a society are missing out on all that potential, we ought to change the conditions that made all that potential wither on the vine. Improve public education, have better safety net programs, focus on improving the “environment” in which these kids are raised. > > Affirmative action on the other hand does very little to help actualize their potential it tries to equalize results without actually equalizing the results. What good does it do to have businesses hire underqualified black employees. Much better to create an environment where they can achieve their potential. It’s hard for me to imagine a scenario where you wouldn’t call someone who isn’t singing, running, or chasing a ball an underqualified black employee. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/127 "2019-12-13T11:26:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Of course, that too - thanks for pointing the so-obvious-even-I-missed-it :o Well, you phrased the other half of the answer better than I was going to. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/128 "2019-12-13T12:22:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It would go a long way in explaining disparities in academic outcomes and the argument for trying to achieve equality of results would be greatly diminished. I responded to that point already. What I was basically talking about was that finding such evidence would not be scientifically very interesting in itself (finding generic correlates of intelligence would be, trying to group human populations that mostly overlap far, far less so). But yes, in the hypothetical where we could definitely say group A is smarter on average than group B then yes that would definitely be a good argument against policies that tried to have proportional representation of A and B. But we’re not in that hypothetical situation, and many (perhaps most) attempts at affirmative action worldwide are just aimed at improving opportunities for certain groups that seem to be disadvantaged, not necessarily equalizing numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/129 "2019-12-13T16:08:17Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > It’s hard for me to imagine a scenario where you wouldn’t call someone who isn’t singing, running, or chasing a ball an underqualified black employee. You may lack imagination. Are you under the impression that all black employees have been hired with the benefit of affirmative action? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/130 "2019-12-13T16:11:13Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I responded to that point already. What I was basically talking about was that finding such evidence would not be scientifically very interesting in itself (finding generic correlates of intelligence would be, trying to group human populations that mostly overlap far, far less so). > > But yes, in the hypothetical where we could definitely say group A is smarter on average than group B then yes that would definitely be a good argument against policies that tried to have proportional representation of A and B. > But we’re not in that hypothetical situation, and many (perhaps most) attempts at affirmative action worldwide are just aimed at improving opportunities for certain groups that seem to be disadvantaged, not necessarily equalizing numbers. You’re the one that came up with the hypothetical, not me. And affirmative action is in fact frequently about equality of results. Or if you prefer to call it improving opportunities, then the desire is to improve opportunities until you get equality of results (or something close to it). Maybe this is not what YOU think affirmative action should be but it is in fact how some proponents of affirmative action see the goals to be. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/131 "2019-12-13T17:24:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK, so what is the difference between race and ethnic group? > > Because the definitions seem to have a lot of overlap. Generally, ethnic group corresponds to country of origin, and race corresponds to continent of origin. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236/132 "2019-12-13T18:10:54Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Generally, ethnic group corresponds to country of origin, and race corresponds to continent of origin. Good enough for government work, but what’s odd is the refusal to recognize the arbitrary nature of your system, that it is reflective of subjective historical and cultural traditions. You also use this system as a tool to generalize across 7 billion humans a biological/genetic interpretation that is either unfounded, misleading, or flatly false. We do know the genetic relationship between groups of people and are learning more each day. The patterns seen simply does not fit old racial models of centuries ago. To use this racial model in the way you do maybe be satisfying to your personal comfort but it is unethical and false. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/10-years-after-the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/844236.md?page=6)