# 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets in Lebanon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072 "2006-09-01T14:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/1 "2006-09-01T14:55:46Z")
> [@](#): > > UN clearance experts had so far found 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets at 359 separate sites, Jan Egeland said. > > Mr Egeland described the fresh statistics as “shocking new information”. > > “What’s shocking and completely immoral is: 90% of the cluster bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the conflict, when we knew there would be a resolution,” he said. > > Every day, people are maimed, wounded and killed by these weapons - it shouldn’t have happened BBC News > **[BBC NEWS | Middle East | UN denounces Israel cluster bombs](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5299938.stm)** > > The UN humanitarian chief condemns Israel's heavy use of cluster bombs in the final days of the Lebanon conflict. How in the wide world could the margin of error be so high? I know this is a controversial weapon, but I never could imagine that the margin of error could by that huge ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/2 "2006-09-01T15:15:28Z")
[QUOTE=Wildfire\*\*MM] BBC News > **[BBC NEWS | Middle East | UN denounces Israel cluster bombs](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5299938.stm)** > > The UN humanitarian chief condemns Israel's heavy use of cluster bombs in the final days of the Lebanon conflict. How in the wide world could the margin of error be so high? I know this is a controversial weapon, but I never could imagine that the margin of error could by that huge [/QUOTE] Margin of error? Eh? I’m not sure what you mean. Cluster bombs by design are a pretty indiscriminate area effect weapon. If you mean that’s a very high number of dud submunitions, I agree. 100K dud bomblets at 359 sites would suggest 278.5 dud bomblets per site. Without knowing how many canisters were dropped at each site, it’s hard to interpret, but I would agree that it’s suggestive of some very poor quality control. From [here](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cluster.htm) the reliability requirement is normally 95%, so multiplying the 100K duds by 20 and dividing by 200 would suggest that number might be expected from about 10,000 CBU-87 1,000lb weapons, which is about as many as the USAF dropped during the whole of Desert Storm. I’m not sure how many units the IDF dropped, or of what type, but 100,000 does sound a lot. On the other hand, the numbers may not be accurate. All this is assuming they were standard impact submunitions. If they were area denial (mines) then 100K would be pretty trivial - 500 canisters or so. However air scattering mines is a bit of a no-no these days and I would have expected a hue and cry if they had been used widely. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/3 "2006-09-01T15:16:28Z")
[Cluster Bomb Specs](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/cluster.htm) Assuming the Israelis used big munitions like the MK22, 100,000 bomblets represents the payload of 50 complete bombs. Since “Submunition function reliability requirement is no less than 95 percent” (see cite), they must have either dropped 1,000 of the things, or programmed some to land without detonating. [The State Department has begun investigating whether Israel improperly used American-made cluster bombs during its monthlong fight against the Hezbollah militia in southern Lebanon, government officials said Friday.](http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/hc-israel0826.artaug26,0,4377394.story?coll=hc-headlines-nationworld)😉 ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/4 "2006-09-01T19:18:32Z")
You’d have to say that it was an extremely cynical move by Israel, looks like a long term punishment for the civilian population. When you consider that Israel has made great play of targeting to avoid civilian casualties, its a bit of an eyebrow raiser when their only counter claim in their defence is that the cluster bombs were ‘not illegal’. The excuse that Hizbollah were hiding among the civilian population does not seem much like any sort of justification to me, I can understand a conventional bomb in such an area to hit an immediate threat, such are the consequencies of Hizbollah behaviour, but to then ensure that in the longer term the area cannot be used for normal living space appears to be an act of punishment and revenge. It was also pretty clear some time ago that there would be some sort of ceasefire, and yets its precisely during this time that Israel has stepped up its use of cluster bombs, and their military chiefs are certainly not stupid they will know what the effect of this will be. So now from having legitimacy in defending itself, Israel has used up a lot of sympathy, and the state department investigation will not come to any findings that will mean sanctions of any sort against Israelm that ain’t gonna happen, the powers of the state department are being emphasised so that it seems that this matter will be taken seriously, the outcome is a foregone conclusion, something along the lines of 'That wasn’t very nice of you to do that Israel, we’d rather you try to avoid using cluster bombs like this again, or at least do it in a way that will not attract criticism, ‘cause it kinda makes us look bad, being as we sold you these things’ ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/5 "2006-09-02T17:39:55Z")
[QUOTE=casdave] You’d have to say that it was an extremely cynical move by Israel, looks like a long term punishment for the civilian population. When you consider that Israel has made great play of targeting to avoid civilian casualties, its a bit of an eyebrow raiser when their only counter claim in their defence is that the cluster bombs were ‘not illegal’. The excuse that Hizbollah were hiding among the civilian population does not seem much like any sort of justification to me, I can understand a conventional bomb in such an area to hit an immediate threat, such are the consequencies of Hizbollah behaviour, but to then ensure that in the longer term the area cannot be used for normal living space appears to be an act of punishment and revenge. It was also pretty clear some time ago that there would be some sort of ceasefire, and yets its precisely during this time that Israel has stepped up its use of cluster bombs, and their military chiefs are certainly not stupid they will know what the effect of this will be. So now from having legitimacy in defending itself, Israel has used up a lot of sympathy, and the state department investigation will not come to any findings that will mean sanctions of any sort against Israelm that ain’t gonna happen, the powers of the state department are being emphasised so that it seems that this matter will be taken seriously, the outcome is a foregone conclusion, something along the lines of 'That wasn’t very nice of you to do that Israel, we’d rather you try to avoid using cluster bombs like this again, or at least do it in a way that will not attract criticism, ‘cause it kinda makes us look bad, being as we sold you these things’ [/QUOTE] I have to agree with you It’s almost as Israel did this because they knew a lot of unexploded cluster bomblets would be lying around. Maybe it was to prevent civilians from returning to their home ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/6 "2006-09-02T19:00:00Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] [Cluster Bomb Specs](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/cluster.htm) [/QUOTE] Thanks for the links. It looks like these bomblets can be set to explode on impact or after a certain amount of time (assuming they aren’t stepped on first.) Any idea how the IDF was using them? How much punch does one of these bomblets pack? I’m not sure how such a thing is measured. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/7 "2006-09-02T19:32:52Z")
Former USAF pilot / CBU dropper … As that very informative link indicates, there are several kinds. The mostly likely US inventory bomblets for antipersonnel use are about the size of a billiard ball, maybe slightly smaller & are essentially aerially delivered hand grenades. If oone goes off within 5 feet of your unprotected body you’re dead. 10 feet, seriously injured. 20 feet, maybe injured, maybe not. 50 feet, scared & your ears ring for a minute. None of the frag will have the energy to penetrate a brick or concrete block wall, even up close. If you ran over one in a car & set it off, the car’s probably toast & you’ve got a 50/50 chance of dead vs injured. The flimsier or more open the car, the worse the outcome. The real problem with dud bomblets is that since they’re pretty stable until disturbed, they tend to go off only in immediate proximity to somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/8 "2006-09-13T14:07:51Z")
According to an IDF commander > [@](#): > > IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon > > By Meron Rappaport > > “What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs,” the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war. > > Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets. > > In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war. [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html) ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/9 "2006-09-13T14:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > The cluster rounds which don’t detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended. > > Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html) ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/10 "2006-09-13T14:29:08Z")
Hmmm. Interesting - I totally failed to remember that artillery and MLRS systems can fire submunition payloads. That would certainly explain the numbers. Not entirely sure where that stuff about phospherous being illegal comes from though - it’s pretty much A-OK to use it so long as you’re not firing it into residential areas. I think the ICRC is indulging in some wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/11 "2006-09-13T14:30:08Z")
> [@](#): > > In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. Since when is WP forbidden by international law? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/12 "2006-09-13T15:44:40Z")
It is totally false that White Phosphorus is widely forbidden under international law. That statement is flat lie, which makes the rest of the statements in that article extremely suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/13 "2006-09-13T16:17:17Z")
\ Let’s move this over to Great Debates. \ ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/14 "2006-09-13T16:25:52Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] It is totally false that White Phosphorus is widely forbidden under international law. That statement is flat lie, which makes the rest of the statements in that article extremely suspect. [/QUOTE] It’s how you use it You can’t use it as a weapon ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/15 "2006-09-13T17:01:41Z")
[QUOTE=Wildfire\*\*MM] It’s how you use it You can’t use it as a weapon [/QUOTE] What international law or treaty prohibits the use of White Phosphorus as a weapon? There is no such international law. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/16 "2006-09-13T18:04:38Z")
There seems to be possibly some regulations against it being used against people > [@](#): > > According to the US Army field manual on the Rule of Land Warfare, “The use of weapons which employ fire, such as tracer ammunition, flamethrowers, napalm and other incendiary agents, against targets requiring their use is not violative of international law.” [16] However, there is some conflicting guidance given by the US Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth. ST 100-3 Battle Book, a student text, states that “It is against the law of land warfare to employ WP against personnel targets.” [17] This seems at odds with other field manuals which discuss the use of white phosphorus against personnel [18]. One blog has reported that The US Marine Corps has recently issued guidance against using “flame weapons” (including white phosphorus) against personnel. [19] [White phosphorus - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#Military_regulations) However > [@](#): > > White phosphorus is not banned by any treaty to which the United States is a signatory. Smokes and obscurants comprise a category of materials that are not used militarily as direct chemical agents. The United States retains its ability to employ incendiaries to hold high-priority military targets at risk in a manner consistent with the principle of proportionality that governs the use of all weapons under existing law. The use of white phosphorus or fuel air explosives are not prohibited or restricted by Protocol II of the Certain Conventional Weapons Convention (CCWC), the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons which may be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects. [White Phosphorus (WP)](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/17 "2006-09-17T15:15:08Z")
you must remember that if the lebanese population had not quite happily allowed hizbollah terrorists not only to flood into their country without any sort of protest (amazing how if you cross enough palms with iranian oil money the locals are soooo glad to see you !) but stood by while they constructed bunkers and THEN built apartment blocks on top of the bunkers ! if you accept a kickback from a murderer to use your upstairs bedroom to snipe from ,dont start complaining when the police begin firing back at your windows ! ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/18 "2006-09-17T15:26:34Z")
How does this justify the use of ordnance that will have no military use after the conflict is over, and when the casualties are going to be unarmed civilians , and significantly, around one third of which will be children, according to the anti mine sites I read. ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/19 "2006-09-20T17:08:17Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] you must remember that if the lebanese population had not quite happily allowed hizbollah terrorists not only to flood into their country without any sort of protest (amazing how if you cross enough palms with iranian oil money the locals are soooo glad to see you !) but stood by while they constructed bunkers and THEN built apartment blocks on top of the bunkers ! if you accept a kickback from a murderer to use your upstairs bedroom to snipe from ,dont start complaining when the police begin firing back at your windows ! [/QUOTE] Let me translate: Hizbollah: We are going to to put a bunker here LocaL: no you are not Hizbollah [BANG] - now any other objections? ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/20 "2006-10-22T15:59:08Z")
related issue Israel admits using phosphorus bombs during war in Lebanon > [@](#): > > Israel has acknowledged for the first time that it attacked Hezbollah targets during the second Lebanon war with phosphorus shells. White phosphorus causes very painful and often lethal chemical burns to those hit by it, and until recently Israel maintained that it only uses such bombs to mark targets or territory. > > The announcement that the Israel Defense Forces had used phosphorus bombs in the war in Lebanon was made by Minister Jacob Edery, in charge of government-Knesset relations. He had been queried on the matter by MK Zahava Gal-On (Meretz-Yahad). [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072.md?page=2)