# 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets in Lebanon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072 "2006-09-01T14:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/41 "2007-01-28T16:26:54Z")
I find myself wondering if cluster bomblets are the new cash crop in south Lebanon. Hezbollah might find them to be worth paying a few cents for, no? And if that’s the case, then Israel was doubly stupid for dropping them so liberally. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/42 "2007-01-29T11:44:23Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] I find myself wondering if cluster bomblets are the new cash crop in south Lebanon. Hezbollah might find them to be worth paying a few cents for, no? And if that’s the case, then Israel was doubly stupid for dropping them so liberally. [/QUOTE] If you are speaking metaphorically, then I reckon you have an astute point, Hezbollah are quite capable of milking their presence for all Hezbollah are worth. I would not be surprized if they planted the things themselves. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/43 "2007-01-29T11:55:31Z")
Well that is a very easy position to refute **FDRE** since every one of them will have a serial number on them, and this can be traced back to the manufacturer, and if the licences on them have been correctly made out, it will be possible to trace the chain of sale and usage from the end user licence. If they had been planted by Hezbollah or anyone else, this would be discovered in short order and there would no doubt be a great deal of publicity, since there isn’t, we can reasonably say that Hezbollah hasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/44 "2007-01-29T20:11:39Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] As much as I hate it when we (America) go to war, at least I am somewhat comforted by the fact that our military has a track record for making surgical strikes. And that we make concerted efforts to minimize civilian causalties. When we attacked Iraq, at least we left the city’s infrastructure intact. Israel reduced Beirut into rubble. [/QUOTE] This is totally untrue. Hizb’Allah areas were reduced to rubble. Non Hizb’Allah areas were left pretty much intact. Beruit was not reduced to rubble. Go to [http://www.michaeltotten.com/](http://www.michaeltotten.com/). He’s taken plenty of pictures of ruined apartment buildings and places reduced to rubble, almost all Hizb’Allah. Check out this story in particular: [http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001367.html](http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001367.html) and this one: [http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001361.html](http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001361.html) and [http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001359.html](http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001359.html). ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/45 "2007-01-29T21:52:01Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] As much as I hate it when we (America) go to war, at least I am somewhat comforted by the fact that our military has a track record for making surgical strikes. And that we make concerted efforts to minimize civilian causalties. When we attacked Iraq, at least we left the city’s infrastructure intact. Israel reduced Beirut into rubble. [/QUOTE] Yep. [And Baghdad is in such great shape thanks to your efforts.](http://images.google.com/images?q=destruction+of+Baghdad+%2B+pictures&ndsp=21&svnum=10&hl=en&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&start=0&sa=N) Wanna tell me about Little Red Riding Hood next? Honestly, why do people tend to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to their countries’ crimes? I certainly don’t see anything “patriotic” about doing so – quite the opposite actually. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/46 "2007-01-30T12:31:32Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Yep. [And Baghdad is in such great shape thanks to your efforts.](http://images.google.com/images?q=destruction+of+Baghdad+%2B+pictures&ndsp=21&svnum=10&hl=en&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&start=0&sa=N) Wanna tell me about Little Red Riding Hood next? Honestly, why do people tend to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to their countries’ crimes? I certainly don’t see anything “patriotic” about doing so – quite the opposite actually. [/QUOTE] I never said that Iraq was in great shape. I said that America left the city’s infrastructure intact. Which is true. We also didn’t use cluster bombs on the Iraqi peoples. Frankly, I think Israel hates the Arabs just as much as the Arabs hate them. They may not say it, but their actions show it. Moreover, I don’t think the United States should get involved in Israeli affairs. They decided to occupy the Palestinian lands, not us. The whole Israeli-Lebanon War was ridiculous from the start. It was like Mexico invading the United States because the Bloods and Crips were firing rockets over the borders. Senseless. Notwithstanding this, I _do_ support the United States helping Israel refine their intelligence. I’d also like to see the United States help install a defense system that would protect them against these rockets that the extremists are using. I just think where is no way a nation like Israel should have such poor intelligence that they are haphazardly bombing civilian targets. What’s so sad is that the world is completely ambivalent to the strife of the Palestinian and Lebanese peoples, and never have the biases of the United Nations been so pronounced. I mean, c’mon, in 2006, the Palestinian peoples democratically elect candidates for their government. Because the candidates don’t mesh with Israel’s interests, they cut off funding, sending the country into economic turmoil. Fair enough, it’s their money, right? But the question begs: Are we for democracy or not? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/47 "2007-01-30T17:12:53Z")
“Don’t mesh with Israel’s interests”? Well, sending money to people who claim to want to kill you seems pretty fucking stupid doesn’t it? Whether those people were democratically elected or not. And comparing Hizb’Allah to a Mexican street gang is ridiculous. This is a militia that is better equipped, better trained, and more motivated than the Lebanese army. Hizb’Allah controls something like 40% of Lebanon. They have created an autonomous state within a state in southern Lebanon. It isn’t like there are 10 guys with a rocket launcher, like the Beltway sniper. Hizb’Allah is arguably more powerful than the Lebanese central government. And they are unarguably more powerful than the Lebanese central government in south Lebanon, they don’t even allow the Lebanese government in there. And this statement: “never have the biases of the United Nations been so pronounced”? What are you talking about? You honestly think the UN is systematically biased in favor of ISRAEL? Is that what you meant to say? Or did you mean to say the opposite? ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/48 "2007-01-31T03:46:08Z")
These cluster bomblets are a cluster fuck. When I was in Cambodia, you were advised to stick to the trails when hiking around Angkor Wat, because there were still live mines even many years later. I hope the cluster bomblets will reliably and safely “expire” after a certain amount of time. This I doubt. I was talking to some Dutch mine removal experts. They said that they could get plenty of people to search for mines, despite the obvious danger, due to the poverty inherent in the country. They said it is impossible to get rid of all the mines, and the goal is to just control the problem with the aim of reducing the annual death rate to that of car accidents. If you’ve seen the way Cambodians drive, this is probably a pretty fricken’ high number. The mitigation technique includes “quarantining” large areas of land. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/49 "2007-01-31T05:17:52Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] [Hezbollah accused of using cluster bombs](http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1926467,00.html) too. [/QUOTE] In a way, it’s almost pathetic. It’s like if the Sharks and the Jets showed up for a rumble, and the Sharks showed up with like hundreds of guys all armed with butterfly knives, and the Jets show up with one guy with a shiv he taped together out of a toothbrush and a broken mirror. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/50 "2007-01-31T13:07:45Z")
Well, who started the rumble ? Oh right, I remember it was Israelis kidnapping Lebanese troops and then firing Iranian rockets at Lebanese villages. The Israelis should have Dresdened the place, and the North Lebanese should have fallen on the ‘refugees’. Hezbollah was and is totally out of order, and now they are destabilizing the North. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/51 "2007-01-31T16:18:33Z")
Thread not going along as you want it then **FRDE** , maybe needs a little bit of chilli spice to pep it up eh? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/52 "2007-01-31T21:50:39Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] I never said that Iraq was in great shape. I said that America left the city’s infrastructure intact. Which is true. We also didn’t use cluster bombs on the Iraqi peoples. - Honesty [/QUOTE] Quite honestly, you need to fight your own ignorance. Iraq’s infrastructure is **[destroyed](http://www.counterpunch.org/wilson10162006.html)**. > [@](#): > > - Some eight million Iraqis live on less than $1 per day, and some 96% of Iraq’s 28 million people receive monthly basic food rations of rice, flour and cooking oil. Security issues and corruption have led to a situation where supplies often do not arrive in sufficient quantity or do not arrive at all and this year (2006) the government cut the food ration budget from four to three billion US dollars. > > - More than 500,000 residents of Baghdad can only get water for a few hours a day due to leaking pipes and the inability of the city’s water purifying plant to meet demand. (A US Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing in 2005 was told that 65 percent of the water from Iraqi water plants was subject to leaking and may become contaminated by sewage.) > > - Millions of Iraqis are living in overcrowded housing. According to the Iraqi Housing Department, 250,000 families in the southern city of Basra have no house of their own and are living with other families. (US military operations, particularly the offensives in cities such as Fallujah, Samarra and Tal Afar, have destroyed or damaged many more.) > > - Iraq’s power generation and supply grid is in a state of collapse. Total power generation in Iraq has slumped to just 3,700 megawatts compared with 4,300 megawatts before March 2003. Households in Baghdad receive on average just two to six hours of electricity per day. Hospitals, schools and private homes are reliant on diesel generators-the cost of which has now skyrocketed due to fuel price rises. Which no doubt makes some people at Halliburton and Batchel very happy…no-bid contracts are a wonderful thing, no? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/53 "2007-01-31T22:00:08Z")
Oh, and by the way, on your other assertion on the use of cluster bombs, reality check time as well: [‘Dumb’ bombs used to topple Saddam](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/02/1054406130502.html) > [@](#): > > More than 240,000 cluster bombs were dropped on Iraq, the report shows. Australia refuses to use these weapons, which were said by doctors to have caused injuries to children during allied bombing raids. > > Humanitarian organisations want cluster bombs banned because their hundreds of grenade-like explosives scatter as far as half a kilometre, sometimes over urban areas where they can lie undisturbed for years and then explode. During the war, Central Command in Qatar began investigating reports that cluster bombs had killed 11 civilians in Hillah, in southern Iraq, and admitted in April that, while aiming for Iraqi missile systems and artillery, it hit Baghdad suburbs with cluster bombs. As for chemical weapons, look up “battle for Fallujah”… ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/54 "2007-02-01T13:35:49Z")
[QUOTE=casdave] Thread not going along as you want it then **FRDE** , maybe needs a little bit of chilli spice to pep it up eh? [/QUOTE] Actually Cab Sauv would do nicely. Possibly the Israelis were sensible in so far as they left a wrecked area that could be repopulated - time will tell. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/55 "2007-02-01T18:01:48Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Quite honestly, you need to fight your own ignorance. Iraq’s infrastructure is **[destroyed](http://www.counterpunch.org/wilson10162006.html)**. Which no doubt makes some people at Halliburton and Batchel very happy…no-bid contracts are a wonderful thing, no? [/QUOTE] I don’t understand what that has to do with my original assertion: > [@Honesty](#): > > I never said that Iraq was in great shape. I said that America left the city’s infrastructure intact. Which is true. We also didn’t use cluster bombs on the Iraqi peoples. > > - Honesty According to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq#Summary_of_the_invasion), Iraq was conquered with minimal civilian casualities and loss of the city’s infrastructure. In contrast, when Israel invaded Lebanon, they killed or injured thousands of civilians. Then, if killing them wasn’t enough, they displace nearly a million Lebanese peoples from their homes. That’s more than the population of Detroit! To also learn Israel used cluster bombs on civilians is disconcerting, but sadly, not surprising. Israel should have never waged a war in which they didn’t have proper intelligence to finish successfully. When I say “successfully” I mean by not killing and displacing thousands of innocent peoples. It seems to me the invasion of Lebanon was just a scorched earth campaign, nothing more, nothing less. I just wish the world didn’t have the bear the financial burden of trying to help Lebanon rebuild. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/56 "2007-02-01T18:14:55Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] “Don’t mesh with Israel’s interests”? Well, sending money to people who claim to want to kill you seems pretty fucking stupid doesn’t it? Whether those people were democratically elected or not. [/QUOTE] Did you read my entire post? I agree with this 100%. It is Israel’s money, they can do what they want with it. I just think that Israel be open and frank with the Palestinian voters. If Israel was honest with the Palestinian peoples and told them of the consequences of voting for a particular candidate, I’m sure they wouldn’t have voted for them. Another option could be to make it so that anyone running for office must be approved by Israel first. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072/57 "2007-02-02T08:47:57Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] Did you read my entire post? I agree with this 100%. It is Israel’s money, they can do what they want with it. I just think that Israel be open and frank with the Palestinian voters. If Israel was honest with the Palestinian peoples and told them of the consequences of voting for a particular candidate, I’m sure they wouldn’t have voted for them. Another option could be to make it so that anyone running for office must be approved by Israel first. - Honesty [/QUOTE] I’m afraid that electorates are not all that rational, to be fair Hamas were pretty competent at providing some sort of social services and Al Fatah were a bit self serving, people voted for Hitler on similar grounds. With reference to your earlier post, Israel did make an effort to keep civillian casualties to the minimum in S Lebanon, they deliberately held off and let the population evacuate. The trouble is that some stayed behind. I’m sure that Israel’s motives were not humanitarian, they just did not want to give out more ammunition for demonization. If they had wanted to, they could have had 1m civillian casualties. My real question is whether there really are 100,000 unexploded bomblets, or whether it is just another PR stunt. Hezzbollah are pretty good at spinning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/100-000-unexploded-cluster-bomblets-in-lebanon/371072.md?page=2)