11/09/01: U.S. Chickens Coming Home to Roost?

Great Debates
21

Heh, you can’t even argue that Russia was better off under the Soviets (much less it’s erstwhile colonies) unless you conveniently ignore those millions of people that Stalin killed. Lets not forget that when extolling the virtues of Communism.

Another thing: Hazel, read everything with a grain of salt (and I’m including the national media in this). Look at what the people who created that website are trying to say–they straight up admit they’ve got a political agenda–and consider how it might color their articles. IMO, the entire site is just propaganda and should be regarded as such. Unless they provide a lot more independantly verifiable sources for their claims, all they’re providing is internet fertilizer.

22

Well put. When I read the article the first time, I kept an open mind–I didn’t necessarily believe every word, but certainly didn’t assume it was complete bullshit either. Now that I’ve had a chance to click around the website more generally, I think I have a better feel for the place. The initial vague scent of unreliabilty is now a full-blown stench.

23

Minty, did you follow the link in the OP?

According to the article, Brzezinski said in an interview that we duped the Soviets into that action; we successfully schemed to lure them into an invasion.

24

Rmat and Wabbit, are you talking about the CommonDreams site, or the FAIR site? The article appeared on CommonDreams, but originated with FAIR. The majority of the articles on CommonDreams come from other publications. They pick up articles, columns, editorials, and op-ed pieces from a varity of places, including some that are pretty mainstream, such as the Boston Globe, Toronto Star, and other newspapers. This article was from FAIR.

But the item in the article I discussed in the OP was an interview with Brzezinski published in France.

I do remember the cold war. In an earlier post, I descibed my youthful puzzlement about the cold war, the domino theory, etc.

Assuming that the Brzezinski interview was not fictional, and assuming that he was quoted accurately, our objective in Afganistan was evidently to lure the Soviets into a launching into a war that would drain their resources for years. A good plan, I suppose, providing one does not mind the side effects to Afganistan.

Here’s a thought. I do not believe communism is a workable system. And if what the Soviets were engaging in wasn’t really communism, but some other form of planned economy, fine, whatever it was, I don’t think it had a chance of suceeding. In fact, it wasn’t suceeding. So, wasn’t the Soviet Union basically doomed from the start? Wouldn’t it have collapsed eventually anyway?

Does that seem inconsistant with what I said earlier about some small, impoverished countries being better off if they went in for some form of communism or socialism? I’d better explain.

Consider a small, hypothectical 3rd world country. It’s basically a fudal despotism. Graft and corruption run rampant. The people at the top have zero interest in doing anything to help the people at the bottom. And most of the populations is at or near the bottom.

A coup or revolution takes place. Suddenly, some reform-minded people are running things. They do want to improve the lot of the people at the bottom. Sanitation is improved. Schools and hospitals are built. The country starts keeping more of the food it grows in order to feed its own people, rather then selling most of it in order to buy weapons and finance the high life for the rulers. It becomes legal and acceptable to form trade unions. Discrimination vs. women and ethnic minorities is curtailed.

Well, hey, I don’t care if the reformers are commies, socialists, rosicrutionists, or space aliens. If, under their government, the population is better off, I’m not particular about what they are. Once the people have jobs, enough to eat, housing, access to medical care; once a new generation grows up literate, then let’s worry about weaning them from communism. If they need weaning. They may see thru it on their own.

25

There are so many threads on inter-related subjects at the moment, it’s not going to be long before the concentric circles embrace Harry bloody Potter…
…on this I just wanted to add that Henry Kissinger stated very clearly he believed OBL was “created” by the CIA – that was, of course, before someone had a word in his ear (around the last week of September as best I can tell) and he quietened down somewhat. One assumes he was referring to early 1980’s activities by the CIA in Pakistan/Afghanistan.

I did link to the relevant Realplayer/voice interview in a couple of earlier threads…

Also, it is sometimes worth checking out what the one and only William Blum has to say. Here, between notes (25) and (33) on the CIA connections of the Afghani leadership immediately prior to the Soviet invasion – BTW, he builds a very impressive late 70’s context in the same article.

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/afghan.htm

  • if you root around a bit, you’ll also find lots of interesting stuff about the CIA allegedly buying the mules for the Afghani heroin trade…all sorts of other goodies…

For reference, Bill Blum’s Homepage – well worth checking this guy out, IMHO:

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm :slight_smile:
It’s also worth noting that Bill Blum has done a reverse turn, (poacher to gamekeeper) in as far as he used to be a CIA man but not now. One assumes he has his own personal agenda so distilling the facts from his opinions is a worthwhile exercise.

26

As does Cuba. C’mon, Hazel, the government of the Democratic Republic (ring any bells?) of Afghanistan was Communist. Of course, the US was trying to destablize that government - that’s what the Cold War was all about.

FAIR can accurately describe a communist government as merely “secular” and “Soviet-friendly”, but it is guilt of sins of omission. That description also describes India during the Cold War, but India was a democracy.

Sua

27

De facto, perhaps Sua, but there are suggestions various members of the Afghan Government were CIA ‘influenced’ from their days as students in the US education system – also, since the Shah fell, the US was particularly keen on establishing listening posts in neighbouring countries to keep tabs on the damn Rooskies as Iran went AWOL.

According to one or two of those docs I linked too above, the CIA had established listening posts within Afghanistan prior to the Soviet invasion.

As a general principle, to say the chaps from Langley weren’t interested in attempting to shape Afghanistan into a front line State against Communism is a little hard to accept.

28

Another article from CommonDreams. (This is one of their own articles, not a reprint.)

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1205-07.htm
Published Wednesday, Dec. 5, 2001-- *Wall Street Journal and The Workers Vanguard Agree: Both Capitalists and Communists Conclude Afghanistan Better Off Under Soviets Than Northern Alliance,*by Tom Turnipseed

Quote: “The Wall Street Journal, the leading global newspaper of business, is published by Dow Jones and Company who also operate the world’s most widely followed stock-market indicator tracking the world’s largest stock market. The Workers Vanguard is a Marxist working class biweekly of the Spartacist League of the United States, which is the U. S. Section of the International Communist League. Drawing from Cold War history and the present war in Afghanistan, both have published recent articles that agree Afghanistan was better off under Soviet control than that of the Northern Alliance.”