# 11 Angry Men (and one atheist) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 1, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807 "2012-06-01T18:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/21 "2012-06-02T04:18:42Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > But I honestly don’t know \*what \*I would do if I were in a room with 11 other people and we had to make a difficult decision based on evidence and they all said “let’s join hands and ask God what to do.” I’d simply say I had a germ-phobia and didn’t allow myself to come in contact with other people. To generate sympathy perhaps I’d also say I was trying desperately to overcome it…but hadn’t yet got there. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/22 "2012-06-02T04:25:22Z")
I have no problem, if I am in a public setting and someone decides a prayer is appropriate, with blatantly shoving my hands in my pockets and craning my neck around the room to see if anyone else isn’t playing along. I work for a state agency, and for some reason when there are large meetings (at least at my location), or something like a staff appreciation lunch, folks think we have to have a prayer. I guess it has something to do with the big boss keeping a couple different copies of the bible on his desk… But no, I’m not appropriately respectful in these situations. I’m not in your home, you have no business expecting me to conform to your personal expectations of behavior in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/23 "2012-06-02T14:22:08Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > What I wouldn’t do for a prayer rug and some knowledge of Arabic at that moment. Well, what you have to do is say, “sure”, and then look around the room and add “So, which way is Mecca?” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/24 "2012-06-02T14:44:11Z")
While pretending to pray to Allah would have the desired effect of pissing off half of the jury while simultaneously making a valid point, people are open minded enough these days that the other half would be fine praying with you as long as you both believe in God (at least you’re not one of those filthy atheists.) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/25 "2012-06-02T14:56:04Z")
I’m an atheist. If I’m invited to a church or a religious ceremony, I’ll be respectful + silent and close my eyes. (But I’ll only hold hands with hot women. :eek::o) However I don’t think a US jury room is an appropriate place for a Christian prayer (because you never hear of Judaism or Islam worship being called for, do you?!) The jury should decide the facts, not wish for guidance. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/26 "2012-06-02T14:57:02Z")
The last time I was in a group and someone suggested we pray, I was pleasantly surprised that 4 out of 9 of us were atheists. The prayer suggestion was dropped. Likely a fluke, but I felt warm and fuzzy regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/27 "2012-06-02T15:30:15Z")
Why not go whole-hog? Tell 'em that after praying for the answer, get the bailiff to bring in the prisoner, a forge, 50 or 60 pounds of coal and a poker to heat until it’s white hot, and make the prisoner carry the poker for nine steps. Dropping the poker before nine steps means God determined the prisoner is guilty. Not dropping it means the prisoner is innocent of the charge. Being maimed for life doesn’t matter, since God is on the prisoner’s side. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/28 "2012-06-02T16:44:50Z")
Is there any chance that a praying jury could be grounds for appeal? Couldn’t a convictee claim that the jurors’ decision was influenced by their beliefs, and not based strictly on the law? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/29 "2012-06-02T17:41:12Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > What I wouldn’t do for a prayer rug and some knowledge of Arabic at that moment. Here you [go](http://www.islamicfinder.org/prayer/index.html), complete with pictures:D ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/30 "2012-06-02T21:15:16Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Why not go whole-hog? > > Tell 'em that after praying for the answer, get the bailiff to bring in the prisoner, a forge, 50 or 60 pounds of coal and a poker to heat until it’s white hot, and make the prisoner carry the poker for nine steps. > > Dropping the poker before nine steps means God determined the prisoner is guilty. Not dropping it means the prisoner is innocent of the charge. Being maimed for life doesn’t matter, since God is on the prisoner’s side. If you are going to mock justice in dark age Christianity, dont forget to throw in 20th century show trials in the avowedly atheistic communist states. Being dead doesnt matter because the state is the people. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/31 "2012-06-03T03:48:40Z")
This thread reminds me of something I saw in the ICU where my dying father was. There was a young fella in there, maybe about 20, the victim of some sort of accident. A sizable group of his friends formed a prayer circle around his bed and prayed rather loudly for him. They did have the courtesy to close the curtain that runs around the bed on those runners, but they were very loud. Now, while it’s true I will tolerate just about anyone’s religion out of a sense of politeness, I really think they went too far. The guy was in the ICU ward of a really excellent hospital being looked after by skilled doctors. I strongly doubt god was just waiting for a prayer circle to come along before kicking in any recovery. Seems they could have prayed for him off in some private venue. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/32 "2012-06-03T04:27:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, what you have to do is say, “sure”, and then look around the room and add “So, which way is Mecca?” I can’t promise I won’t ever do this, with or without a hanky-prayer-rug. 😛 On the other hand, if someone else wants me to pray FOR them, I have no problem with that. Which is wierd, as I don’t pray. But I understand a genuine request for quiet support, and have no problem giving it. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/33 "2012-06-03T05:02:53Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > If you are going to mock justice in dark age Christianity, dont forget to throw in 20th century show trials in the avowedly atheistic communist states. So give us your defence of trial by ordeal. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/34 "2012-06-03T05:38:40Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > This thread reminds me of something I saw in the ICU where my dying father was. There was a young fella in there, maybe about 20, the victim of some sort of accident. A sizable group of his friends formed a prayer circle around his bed and prayed rather loudly for him. They did have the courtesy to close the curtain that runs around the bed on those runners, but they were very loud. Now, while it’s true I will tolerate just about anyone’s religion out of a sense of politeness, I really think they went too far. The guy was in the ICU ward of a really excellent hospital being looked after by skilled doctors. I strongly doubt god was just waiting for a prayer circle to come along before kicking in any recovery. Seems they could have prayed for him off in some private venue. It is part of some versions of Christianity that a prayer with the “laying on of hands” is more powerful. And being loud is a cultural thing that they probably didn’t think about. Especially if there was any glossalia. Not saying they weren’t rude–I wasn’t there–but wanted to make sure you understood why they did what they did. And, yes, for all we know, they were perfectly respectful. And if you actually believe that Christians would pray to God to ask him to tell them what to do, you are making the mistake of taking what a small number of whack-a-doodle’s believe and equating it with Christianity. The prayer for wisdom was most likely what happened–it’s a very common prayer. Honestly, the idea that they’d do that is comical to me. Because, if they did, the only reason they’d still be deliberating is if two or more people claimed to get a revelation from God telling them the answer, and they disagreed. Then there’d be a doctrine battle with each quoting scripture to back up their claim. I can’t even imagine what Scriptures they’d use–but, I’m sorry, the twisting would be hilarious to me. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/35 "2012-06-03T07:28:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It is part of some versions of Christianity that a prayer with the “laying on of hands” is more powerful. And being loud is a cultural thing that they probably didn’t think about. Especially if there was any glossalia. > > Not saying they weren’t rude–I wasn’t there–but wanted to make sure you understood why they did what they did. > > And, yes, for all we know, they were perfectly respectful. And if you actually believe that Christians would pray to God to ask him to tell them what to do, you are making the mistake of taking what a small number of whack-a-doodle’s believe and equating it with Christianity. The prayer for wisdom was most likely what happened–it’s a very common prayer. > > Honestly, the idea that they’d do that is comical to me. Because, if they did, the only reason they’d still be deliberating is if two or more people claimed to get a revelation from God telling them the answer, and they disagreed. Then there’d be a doctrine battle with each quoting scripture to back up their claim. I can’t even imagine what Scriptures they’d use–but, I’m sorry, the twisting would be hilarious to me. I grew up among these people and know very well what they were doing, thank you. It was still uncalled for and disruptive in the middle of the ICU. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/36 "2012-06-03T09:36:30Z")
> [@](#): > > It is part of some versions of Christianity that a prayer with the “laying on of hands” is more powerful. And being loud is a cultural thing that they probably didn’t think about. Especially if there was any glossalia. Part of the culture is to make sure that everyone else knows how pious you are, even though this is directly contravened by Scripture in Matthew 6: > [@](#): > > 6 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. > 2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. > \*\*Prayer \*\* > > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/37 "2012-06-03T10:34:52Z")
I’d probably join hands, lower my head, and mutter something under my breath. Those mutterings may or may not include “Dear Lord” “Jesus Christ” “Give me the strength to continue” “these brain dead idiots” “waste of time” “you owe me one” and “thanks a lot, God.” ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/38 "2012-06-03T16:02:51Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > This thread reminds me of something I saw in the ICU where my dying father was. There was a young fella in there, maybe about 20, the victim of some sort of accident. A sizable group of his friends formed a prayer circle around his bed and prayed rather loudly for him. They did have the courtesy to close the curtain that runs around the bed on those runners, but they were very loud. Now, while it’s true I will tolerate just about anyone’s religion out of a sense of politeness, I really think they went too far. The guy was in the ICU ward of a really excellent hospital being looked after by skilled doctors. I strongly doubt god was just waiting for a prayer circle to come along before kicking in any recovery. Seems they could have prayed for him off in some private venue. I can’t figure out how these people’s minds work. Do they think God will let someone suffer and die if there aren’t sufficient people praying for them? If some little kid dies a horrible death does that mean God could have saved them and decided not to? I can see things like last rites, asking God for mercy, but the idea that we need to say “Hey God, look over here, cousin Joey believes in you more than that kid with leukemia down the hall” suggest a God so repulsive that I don’t know why people would want to worship him. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/39 "2012-06-03T17:55:52Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Part of the culture is to make sure that everyone else knows how pious you are, even though this is directly contravened by Scripture in Matthew 6: I like those quotes! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807/40 "2012-06-03T18:34:10Z")
“Sorry, I don’t participate in meaningless rituals. But enjoy your delusions.” I wonder – if the other jurors then complained about me mocking their religion, would there be any grounds to throw me off the jury? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/11-angry-men-and-one-atheist/623807.md?page=3)