Where is the mystery? You track your money, you don’t withdraw more then you have. It doesn’t matter when the bank takes the money out- once you commit it in any way (write a check, use your bank card, use the ATM) it’s just fucking GONE. No mystery of accounting there. You add and subtract and there isn’t a problem. If that’s too difficult a concept, you should really use all cash or money orders (which is what I did for quite a while) until you can get your brain wrapped around that concept. The money is no longer yours once it’s put out to someone else. Your ATM balance means nothing- what matters is the amount you put on the paper you’re keeping track on. If you’re not keeping track then shut the fuck up and eat the charges!
Except that even keeping track of my money does not necessarily help. I screwed up my checking account in January. I forgot to record an online payment, overdrew my account. :smack: Noone to blame but myself, paid the fees, got money out of savings to cover things, everything is fine.
Except it meant I had to schedule another online payment on the same day as my direct deposit paycheck, since I didn’t have the usual cushion I keep in the account to pay it before that. And got hit by an overdraft fee, since they decided to process the payment at 9:00 AM, before they processed the deposit at 9:00:30 AM. Boy, that was customer friendly, wasn’t it. And they are not even a big national chain. It is a locally owned “Friendly” S&L. One more “friendly” act like that and I am moving the checking to my CU.
You don’t have to know all the accounting procedures, or the ins and outs of the banking system - god knows, I don’t. All you have to do is keep track of your money.
For example, say you have $400 in your checking account. You withdraw $100 at your bank’s ATM. You immediately subtract that from your original $400, leaving a $300 balance. Then you go to the gas station and spend $28 on a tank of gas with your debit card. You immediately subtract that and are left with a balance of $272. Then you go to some random ATM and withdraw another $100. You subtract that and your balance is $172. It doesn’t matter what the bank does, or how it processes the transactions, or what balance the ATM machine says you have - you have $172, even if the bank says you have $400
Again, I repeat - if you rely on the bank to tell you how much money you have, you’re going to run into these problems repeatedly. You keep track of how much money you have and don’t put a transaction through that will put you over if, for some reason, everything clears at once.
Apparently the bank isn’t reporting to you the correct balances. Either that or you deliberately try to withdraw more money than you have. If you’re not taking out more money then you have, there is absolutely no way you’re going to have an overdraft, no matter when the bank process the transactions, or in what order. You don’t have to know any special information about how banks work - just keep your own records of what you spend, and only use the bank’s statements as back up that nothing you didn’t actually charge/spend/write a check for goes through.
No, it’s not completely arbitary. Proofers only work Monday-Friday (on some occasions they work Saturdays, but that’s not usual.) And yes, most of the proofing is done by machine, but if the machine comes up with an error–the check not being filled out properly or being filled out with non-blue/black ink, amounts on the deposit slips not adding up with the checks’ amount, etc…the humans have to be there to see what’s the matter.
Monday-Friday is the standard business operating time. That is why the bank processes stuff then, and not later. Now, maybe your bank is different, but when I call my bank’s 1-800 number, I get both the standard balance and the actual balance (actual balance being minus any checkcard or ATM withdrawals that I’ve made since the bank processed everything).
If I have 500 dollars in my account, and I withdraw 50 and pay another 30 at the gas station, the automated phone teller will tell me I have a balance of 500, with a current balance of 420. I don’t know if your bank does this or not.
Also, you can overdraw your account at the ATM due to that overdraw “window,” which I mentioned above.
The bank is not there to hold your hand and make sure you do the math properly. Blaming the bank for your mistakes is silly, and 99 times out of 100, when a customer came in steaming about an overdrawn account, it was his/her fault. Period. End of story. If there was a genuine accounting error, we refunded everything–including NSFs.
This is why you need to make SURE you know everything about what your account does. The customer service representatives are there to help you when opening your account. Read the fine print in the brochures. Most, if not all, of this information is there.
Withdrawals and payments are always processed before deposits, even at credit unions.
If you make a check deposit, or an online switch, the same day you make a payment, do not count on that money being there. If you make a cash deposit, it will be there. So always make your deposits in cash (transferring from savings to checking or whatever) if you need a “cushion.”
I’ve overdrawn my checking account before, and except in one occasion, it was always. my. fault. I can’t tell you how many abusive customers I had to deal with because they hadn’t thought ahead properly.
That’s just silly, the bank isn’t your mother, it’s a business. Who cares who’s fault it is, if the bank isn’t providing a service at a pricepoint you find reasonable, then it should behoove you to find someone who will. It’s thinking like yours that allows banks to rake in obscene amounts of profit from schmucks who think they “deserved” the absurdly high overdraft fees.
But it sounds to me like, in pulykamell’s case, the money WAS in the account for the two initial withdraws, right? She (he?) didn’t create an overdraft until the third withdrawl, because the first two should have left a positive balance. It wasn’t until the $100 withdrawl that she ran out of money.
At least that’s the way I read this:
So, if she kept extremely good track of her account, and wrote everything down, and subtracted with a calculator, she’d STILL have a positive balance up until that last withdrawl. Except it didn’t work that way, because the bank didn’t process the withdrawls in order. I’d be pissed too.
Interesting note: My bank actually advises customers that, if they are going to be in a position of having to overdraft an account to make several small payments, it would be wiser to make a single large overdraft than to make several small ones because of the way the fees stack up. And they absolutely advertise overdraft protection as an emergency/safety feature, etc–there is no shame-on-you/punishment/don’t-do-that-again aspect to it at all.
ARGH!!!
What. The. Fuck? Can you read, or do you wish do pointlessly scold me at each turn?
I’ve already said: I did keep track of balances. I always KNEW how much money I had in my bank account. I KNEW the last transaction was going to bounce. I KNEW the $35 NSF fee would hit me, and I accepted that fee as acceptible for what I viewed as a temporary loan. I didn’t know the transactions would be processed in the order Sunday, Friday, Saturday.
What’s so fucking hard to understand? And I said I WAS FULLY AWARE AND READY TO EAT THE $35 CHARGE FOR SUNDAY’S NSF.
Once again, I KEPT TRACK OF ALL THE CHARGES!
Now, respond to my questions, how does any of this make sense?
Thank you. Somebody understood the gyst of my post. 
(I’m a he for the curious.)
You’re talking deposits. I could understand a deposit taking actual time to proof. I can stick in an empty envelope and tell the computer I’ve just made a $500 deposit. Of course, somebody needs to check that. That’s logical.
Now, the banks deciding to processes the withdrawals before the deposits? That’s arbitrary.
But this is not my point.
My point was re: withdrawals. I withdraw $40. The machine gives me $40. I don’t see what kind of proofing need be involved. During the handshake between the bank and ATM, I assume the ATM is telling the bank “Hey, I’m giving pulykamell $40. Make a note of it.” What further work is involved?
The original overdraft was my fault. I didn’t complain (Well, not about the bank. I did complain about my stupidity.) I just took the money out of savings and paid the fees.
But I had no choice about scheduling the online payment. If I waited until Monday, it was late, if I tried to pay it before Friday, I didn’t have enough money in my account. But on Friday, I got paid, by direct deposit. The same direct deposit I have been getting there the last 8 years, every 2 weeks. More than enough to pay the bill. Except, it wasn’t. There that is. Not until after they hit me for another fee.
There is no float on direct deposit. It just goes into the account. So why do the withdrawals before the direct deposit? Could it be… to see if they can catch anybody short?
The practice of paying the big checks first can be rationalized. I don’t agree with it, but at least there is a semblance of a reasoning behind it. What reason is there for processing withdrawals before deposits, especially electronic deposits?
Lok
(Caveat - I am not a banker, although I have had some experience of the merchant side of electronic banking, so the following may not be completely correct.)
I won’t try to defend it, but I think I can explain it. I expect that the bank records the ATM transactions as they happen, but doesn’t process them against your account until the “next business day” (in this case, everything from Friday, Saturday and Sunday gets processed as a single day’s entries overnight Sunday. Each time you used the ATM, it checked and saw a balance of $90, because the previous withdrawals hadn’t been charged against your account yet. Thus:
Friday: $90 in account. ATM Withdraw $25. Balance: $90
Saturday: $90 in account. ATM Withdraw $20. Balance: $90
Sunday: $90 in account. ATM Withdraw $100. Balance: $90
Note that if you are using a debit card or another bank’s ATM, you can practically guarantee that this is the case. The other ATM bank, or merchant’s bank in the case of a debit card, will check with your bank (but I believe doesn’t get any balance info, just an OK/not OK response). The actual charge won’t get passed to your bank until the other bank processes the day’s transactions that night, and may be not be processed by your bank until the following overnight processing.
FWIW, I have accounts with both a major bank and a credit union and both update my account balances immediately for ATM and online transactions. For the credit union, all transactions for the day, including deposits, are processed before any overdrafts are calculated. (I’ve not had reason to check this with my other accounts.) I don’t know if this is due to different banking regulations in Canada or just better customer service.
I once had a similar story. Somehow my bank (CGD) account went to $-0.75, and they cancelled my ATM card. They charged me something like $2 as punishment. So far no problem. I then proceded to deposit some $200 and asked for a new card. Well, the card was a no-no. And this was a debit card. I was blacklisted for more than a year because of this situation and unable to get any sort of card. Naturally, I started hating the bank and took my business somewhere else. I was and still am only a student but if someday I get to be my country’s wealthiest man, I’ll make sure never to take my money to them. Fuck you CGD.
I’m really sorry about the online payment deal. For what it’s worth, I’ve had to do similar things, and overdrawn my account.
As far as direct deposit goes, if yours comes in on the 14th of every month (and when they give you an exact date, that generally means it goes in at midnight). However, you spent money on your debit card on the 13th–before your direct deposit was due. Thus, your withdrawals (purchases on the debit card) are processed before your direct deposit.
Look you fuckhead, I’ve tried to be civil and understanding here. I understand that overdraft fees suck. I am pretty poor, so I can’t fucking afford 30 dollar overdraft fees. Even the credit unions around here charge 25-27 bucks per NSF.
You know what? I DO NOT OVERDRAW MY ACCOUNT. I am very, very careful with my money. If I make a mistake, I don’t tell the bank that it’s their fault, or they shouldn’t charge me such high fees, because I knew what I was getting into.
But I’ve worked in a bank. I have seen people have negative balances in the hundreds who have disappeared off the face of the earth. The bank eats those debts. I don’t get how the fact that the bank charges a high overdraft fee somehow absolves me of any blame I may have in fucking over my account myself.
There are plenty of dishonest people in the world. I don’t know, when I’m working in a bank, that everyone is going to be honest, or that everyone is going to be responsible for their accounts, so I have to exact some kind of punishment to act as a deterrent, otherwise the banks, like I said before, have to eat whatever money they’re out.
You’re not entitled to do whatever you want, whenever you want. I do not know of any bank/credit union in this area that does not charge overdraft fees (except in the cases of those who have overdraft protection). You don’t like it? Keep your fucking money under your pillow. They won’t be crying over the loss of such a wonderful customer.
Bookkeeper pretty much nailed what your bank is probably doing. I can’t answer for your bank, because mine updates my balance instantly after debit card purchases/ATM withdrawals. If yours doesn’t, that sucks, and they should’ve let you know.
No debit card was involved. It was a direct withdrawal from my checking account by another bank for a credit card payment, set up to happen on that Friday. Some will do a same day transaction as long as you schedule it before 2 or 3 PM. This one needed at least 3 days, or it would do it same day, if you paid an extra fee. If I had known my bank was going to process the withdrawal first, I would have waited until Friday afternoon and paid the fee. Now I do know.
Lok
Oh, I understand what happened. It was explained to me after I bitched and complained to the bank. I still think it’s illogical, and I’m glad to see other banks do it the way I think is normal. Who knows? Maybe now that Bank One is Chase they do do it this way? I can’t keep up with the changes every time they change my bank and the rules on me. However, Bank One took off half the NSF fees. I would have complained more but, like I said before, my bank has refunded to me well over $200 in NSF fees over the years (ones that I legitimately incurred and contested only for the sake of contesting), so I figure the karma evened out.
It’s difficult to keep up with changing rules during mergers and buy-outs. I’m glad your bank would refund the money.
I never said banks never do anything scummy. I’ve been fucked over by a bank before, and I left my post at the last one because of some things that I saw as unethical. However, overdraft fees were not the reason.
It makes perfect sense. You relied on the bank to tell you how much money you had and got burned, now you’re pissed. Whatever. I’m not going to have a battle of wits with someone that can’t even balance their checking account.