# 12/15/15 The final Republican Debate. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 15, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529 "2015-12-15T14:05:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/121 "2015-12-16T16:31:57Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Ah yes, how could we forget Candy Crowley fact-checking Romney in the middle of a town hall debate? It was a big boost for Obama, who hammed up the moment brilliantly. Of course, Crowley was wrong, Romney was right, and she admitted as much after the debate. But the damage was done. It’s a good example of why real-time fact-checking by the moderator is not always a great idea. Eh, what? Romney was lying or idiotic, Obama was correct. [Obama September 12 (1 day after the attacks) Rose Garden speech transcript](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/09/12/remarks-president-deaths-us-embassy-staff-libya): > [@](#): > > No **acts of terror** will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done. This actually happened. Obama called it “acts of terror”. The later parsing I remember from the likes of right wingers, saying that acts of terror doesn’t mean he called it terrorism was about as idiotic as watching pre-schoolers fight. They were factually wrong, Obama was right, full stop, end of story. The [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_Crowley#Career) references [this article](http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/20/world/africa/libya-investigation/index.html) as when “The White House, for the first time Thursday [September 20, 9 days after the attacks], declared the attack that killed Stevens and three other people a terrorist attack.” I did some digging and the ultimate issue here and the source of the confusion was that the days immediately after the attacks were filled with speculation as investigators sorted through what happened. When Obama made his remarks the day after the attack, calling it an act of terror, there wasn’t a definitive conclusion as to what happened. [Administration officials were also not speaking of one mind](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/oct/17/mitt-romney/romney-says-obama-waited-14-days-call-libya-attack/)when they spoke to the media, which in turn lead to several different people speculating or refusing to speculate on what happened. There were beliefs that the Mohammed video on Youtube caused spontaneous reactions that lead to the attacks. > [@](#): > > On Sept. 13, White House spokesman Jay Carney said, “The protests we’re seeing around the region are in reaction to this movie. They are not directly in reaction to any policy of the United States or the government of the United States or the people of the United States.” > > The next day, a State Department spokeswoman said, “We are very cautious about drawing any conclusions with regard to who the perpetrators were, what their motivations were, whether it was premeditated.” But she ended with this: “Obviously, there are plenty of people around the region citing this disgusting video as something that has been motivating.” > > On Sept. 16, five days after the attack, Susan Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said, “We do not have information at present that leads us to conclude that this was premeditated or preplanned.” > > On Sept. 20, Carney told reporters, “It is, I think, self-evident that what happened in Benghazi was a terrorist attack. Our embassy was attacked violently, and the result was four deaths of American officials.” > > But that same day, Obama told an audience at a town hall meeting, “What we do know is that the natural protests that arose because of the outrage over the video were used as an excuse by extremists to see if they can also directly harm U.S. interests.” > > It wasn’t until Sept. 21 that everyone in the administration as a whole stated publicly that the attack was planned and executed by a terrorist group. What the administration did wasn’t wrong or deceptive at all. Jay Carney on September 13 spoke of the protests, which was a REAL THING that happened in many parts of the world. There was no indication or ability of terrorists to create such a mass outpouring of anger to cover up one attack. They probably took advantage of it or by coincidence planned it on the same day. The State Department spokeswoman quoted next talked about 2 different things: being careful to draw quick conclusions on the attacks, and acknowledging the anger from the videos. Not Obama’s fault Fox decided to link those together. There can certainly be anger to the video AND separate terrorist attacks. Then Susan Rice basically echoed the previous sentiment to not jump to conclusions. Nobody was hiding anything, we just didn’t know for sure at that time. Then Carney on Sep. 20 again repeated what Obama first said in the Rose Garden speech, but what right wingers seem to draw from that is that a planned terrorist attack must be different from the angry reaction to the Mohammed video. Whether or not there is a link is irrelevant, people can be mad about 2 things at once. And finally Obama did link the video to terrorist motivation but seem to stop short of tying it directly to Benghazi. Which is sensible since we didn’t know for sure. There were protests, obviously some terrorist acts arose from that, separating those attacks from Benghazi until a link can be established is proper. Right wingers felt Obama should have blamed the attacks on terrorism immediately without knowing anything, and denied any anger stemming from the video because in their world, one should be able to criticize Islam without repercussions. Taken all together, administration officials had to respond but went with what was known at the time. They passed that information along to the media and some of it conflicted, which is normal when the full story was not known. Right wingers saw a conspiracy instead of the simple process of investigation, and in their echo chamber the story evolved from “Obama administration is investigating conflicting reports” to “Obama never called it terror and covered it up”. That’s why Romney was so intent on getting Obama “on the record” during the debates, as if he found a smoking gun. His zeal in focusing on the specific words “act of terror” was wrong, he got caught, Crowley corrected him, and he and the GOP looked like fools. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/122 "2015-12-16T16:44:02Z")
Candy Crowley, who did the fact-checking, said after the debate that Romney’s point was correct, it did take about 2 weeks for the administration to admit the attack had nothing to do with a video tape. Watch that moment in the debate, I think you can see she immediately regrets piping up. She later claimed she was just trying to move things along by saying both guys were right. Folks on both sides agreed it was bad moderating. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/123 "2015-12-16T16:49:25Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Candy Crowley, who did the fact-checking, said after the debate that Romney’s point was correct, it did take about 2 weeks for the administration to admit the attack had nothing to do with a video tape. Watch that moment in the debate, I think you can see she immediately regrets piping up. She later claimed she was just trying to move things along by saying both guys were right. Folks on both sides agreed it was bad moderating. Got a cite that she said that Romney was correct? Because he wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/124 "2015-12-16T16:51:36Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/125 "2015-12-16T16:58:25Z")
Romney was right only in that Obama didn’t phrase it precisely as Romney thought it should have been. To me, the difference between “acts of terror” and “terrorism” is essentially meaningless, but to Romney it apparently has great importance. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/126 "2015-12-16T17:00:13Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Eh, what? Romney was lying or idiotic, Obama was correct. > > [Obama September 12 (1 day after the attacks) Rose Garden speech transcript](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/09/12/remarks-president-deaths-us-embassy-staff-libya): > > > [@](#): > > > > No **acts of terror** will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done. Strictly speaking, that’s not referring to the event as “an act of terror”; it’s just saying that acts of terror won’t shake that resolve, or alter that character, or eclipse that light. If I ask whether a particular woman is from Ohio, and you reply that no women from Ohio will ever marry you – well, have you technically answered my question? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/127 "2015-12-16T17:02:07Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > He was repeatedly and completely humiliated by the TRUMP… > > TRUMP was being quite smart here… > > …while speaking of the broader principles involved, as TRUMP did. Is there a reason you put this candidate’s name in all caps? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/128 "2015-12-16T17:04:35Z")
Ok but what about Trumps Nuclear triad gaffe? How could anyone that lived through the cold war believe that Trump doesn’t know what the nuclear triad is? Thats a level of ignorance that should truly scare anyone that thinks Trump might be the next commander in chief. This is not a gotcha question, its general knowledge I learnt when I was 17 in high school. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/129 "2015-12-16T17:07:59Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Nonsense. Trump wasn’t just unclear on the DETAILS, he simply didn’t know what the nuclear triad is! Rubio missed his cue on that one. I believe his follow-up answer started with “For those at home who are not familiar with it let me explain it for you.” He should have added “And I’ll also explain it for Donald since it’s obvious he has no clue.” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/130 "2015-12-16T17:13:42Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Ok but what about Trumps Nuclear triad gaffe? How could anyone that lived through the cold war believe that Trump doesn’t know what the nuclear triad is? Thats a level of ignorance that should truly scare anyone that thinks Trump might be the next commander in chief. This is not a gotcha question, its general knowledge I learnt when I was 17 in high school. I don’t think it will be a problem for him. So he didn’t answer the question – who’s to say whether he didn’t know the answer, or just chose to answer a specific question with a prepared statement hardly related to the question at all, except for the word “nuclear”. It’s a really common thing for politicians to do. Damn reporters with their “gotcha” questions! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/131 "2015-12-16T17:20:03Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Strictly speaking, that’s not referring to the event as “an act of terror”; it’s just saying that acts of terror won’t shake that resolve, or alter that character, or eclipse that light. If I ask whether a particular woman is from Ohio, and you reply that no women from Ohio will ever marry you – well, have you technically answered my question? Not to take this hijack further, but… That entire speech was about the events in Benghazi, so it’s a far stretch to say that it wasn’t clear the president was calling those events an act of terror. This was not some multi-faceted speech that touched on multiple issues and might therefore lead to confusion. However, Romney should have said that it took 2 weeks for the administration to stop throwing out other possibilities as well. Obama said that very same day that it was too early to tell, and Rice made the rounds of the Sunday talk shows equivocating about the cause. Romney could have been right if he hadn’t insisted on trying to pin a specific phrase to Obama on a specific day. But he did, and so he loses. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/132 "2015-12-16T17:21:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a reason you put this candidate’s name in all caps? Cause Jeb! already took the exclamation point, and Jeb? also has some claim on the question mark, too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_wind_of_my_soul)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/133 "2015-12-16T17:22:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Marco Rubio is very stiff and robotic. Surely he fails on the “I’d like to have a beer with him” scale. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m ashamed at not having thought this through before, but – Chris Christie is the one shooting for that _“I’d like to have a beer with him”_ role, isn’t he? I would much rather have a beer with Rubio than Christie. Rubio would be a much more pleasant conversationalist. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/134 "2015-12-16T17:26:48Z")
Is it my imagination, or did the stage sag under the weight when Christie walked across? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/135 "2015-12-16T17:28:33Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I’m surprised Rubio comes off to some as the most robotic when he shares a stage with Carson and Jeb. … Carson’s not a robot, he’s a sleepwalker. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m ashamed at not having thought this through before, but – Chris Christie is the one shooting for that _“I’d like to have a beer with him”_ role, isn’t he? When I think Christie, I think, “I better not get in between him and his beer, or any of his other favorite foods.” ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/136 "2015-12-16T17:42:21Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t think it will be a problem for him. So he didn’t answer the question – who’s to say whether he didn’t know the answer, or just chose to answer a specific question with a prepared statement hardly related to the question at all, except for the word “nuclear”. It’s a really common thing for politicians to do. Damn reporters with their “gotcha” questions! No sorry if you don’t know what the nuclear triad is for fucks sake you should not be a candidate for commander in chief. This is very very general knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/137 "2015-12-16T17:51:57Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > The applause sign lit up. Maybe. Sorta kinda. What part did the RNC play in determining who got tickets? The Corporate Republicans look like they are bailing out on Jeb( ) and dashing to Rubio in a panic, so they had a good reason to boost his impact. Maybe that’s just my conspiracy bump acting up again, but I bet if you compared the intensity of audience reaction to poll standing, only Rubio’s would be puzzling. If _that_ many Republicans like Rubio _that_ much, how come he’s trailing so badly? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/138 "2015-12-16T17:54:19Z")
Just saw a clip With Fiorina being interviewed after the debate. (Paraphrased) She said the GOP shouldn’t have a candidate who insults women. Isn’t that POLITICAL CORRECTNESS? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/139 "2015-12-16T17:55:46Z")
[The New Yorker’s take on the debate](http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/republicans-principle-free-presidential-debate) was that all the candidates, except Lindsey Graham, renounced American principles in their zeal for the rhetoric of war and fear. It gave “the prize for ahistorical gobbledygook” to Marco Rubio: [QUOTE=Marco Rubio] In 2013, we had never faced a crisis like the Syrian refugee crisis now. Up until that point, a refugee meant someone fleeing oppression, fleeing Communism like it is in my community. [/QUOTE] “Are Syrians not fleeing oppression?” ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529/140 "2015-12-16T17:56:14Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > TRUMP was being quite smart here in all seriousness considering it was a ridiculously specific question. Nobody outside of the military and the think tank people know the pros and cons of each part of the nuclear triad and thus whether to focus on improving ballistic missiles, bombers, or submarines. A President’s job isn’t to micromanage this decision but to appoint the right expert to make that decision for him while speaking of the broader principles involved, as TRUMP did. This is sort of Hugh Hewitt’s schtick. Ask some hyper-specific foreign policy question that no one in the audience cares at all about (Quds forces, the nuclear triad, etc), and watch Trump ‘misunderstand’ the question or answer in vague terms. This way Hewitt demonstrates that he’s smarter than Trump. It’s silly, but it must be nice for Hewitt to feel smarter than someone else. That said, while I agree that having an actual opinion on which leg of the triad needs more prioritization is a silly thing to debate at this level, the fact that Trump clearly didn’t even know what the Triad was should reflect badly on him. And the fact that Rubio did should reflect well on him. But in reality, Rubio probably comes off as the kid in the front row who always brings an apple to the teacher and has his hand up as high as he can, screeching “I know, I know, I know!” Republican primary voters really hate that kid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-15-15-the-final-republican-debate/740529.md?page=8)