# 12/7 Daily Show: Immorality vs Economy
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 8, 2009, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429 "2009-12-08T09:53:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/21 "2009-12-08T15:40:42Z")
Our present system has not made them go away. Society in public wants to end them, but support them in private. It makes us hypocritical. You can send your kid out with 20 bucks and he can bring back weed. Any kid knows that. It is a point that kids talk about how stupid their parents are for not knowing better.
Lets be honest. Drugs will not go away. The way we handle them now, corrupts politicians, governments , the police and legal system. We do this damage while not cutting back on crime but by actually increasing overall crime.
It is not unlike the porn argument. In public everybody decries the ruinous effects ,but it is a huge ,huge business. The American people buy it. We tax porn movies , porn actors, directors and companies that make the films.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/22 "2009-12-08T15:58:20Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#):
>
> It’s from Wiki (so take that with however much salt you want).
>
> Here’s the wiki reference:
> Walmsley, Roy (2007). “World Prison Population List. 7th edition” (PDF). International Centre for Prison Studies. School of Law, King’s College London. [http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/world-prison-pop-seventh.pdf](http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/world-prison-pop-seventh.pdf). Retrieved 2009-08-06.
>
> ETA: Relevant quote from the PDF:
> The math works. Blech.
Looks like they included “pretrial detainees” for the US but not China.
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### Author:  [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/23 "2009-12-08T16:01:36Z")
Sure, we musn’t forget China.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/24 "2009-12-08T16:18:14Z")
> [@Superhal](#):
>
> I saw this clip on today’s Daily Show. A student asked Obama at a rally: Have you looked into legalizing drugs or say prostitution to help stimulate the economy?
>
> Imho, if the greater good is saving the country, I think a little legal marijuana or legalized prostitution would be the lesser evil.
>
> Should morality be an obstacle where the overall health of your country is in the balance?
Since legalizing drugs is both the moral choice and economically beneficial, it’s a win win. 😉
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/25 "2009-12-08T17:24:10Z")
I don’t see that legalizing marijuana use has much of a moral downside - in fact, by keeping otherwise innocent people out of the legal system for a victimless crime, it has a moral advantage. Possibly harmful consequences of marijuana use, like driving while stoned, can be regulated. And there is that great economic advantage also.
Prostitution is not such a clear case. Forget about sexual morality, we have to ask if legal prostitution would encourage coercion of prostitutes by their now legal pimps. I could see someone worrying about it encouraging unfaithfulness by men. On the other hand, it might reduce some of the ills we already see by regulation. I’m probably in favor of legalization, but it would take some careful law writing. Legalizing marijuana is a no-brainer.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/26 "2009-12-08T17:26:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> I don’t see that legalizing marijuana use has much of a moral downside - in fact, by keeping otherwise innocent people out of the legal system for a victimless crime, it has a moral advantage. Possibly harmful consequences of marijuana use, like driving while stoned, can be regulated. And there is that great economic advantage also.
>
> Prostitution is not such a clear case. Forget about sexual morality, we have to ask if legal prostitution would encourage coercion of prostitutes by their now legal pimps. I could see someone worrying about it encouraging unfaithfulness by men. On the other hand, it might reduce some of the ills we already see by regulation. I’m probably in favor of legalization, but it would take some careful law writing. Legalizing marijuana is a no-brainer.
It seems to me that a prostitute who can take legal action against a coercive pimp is in a much greater power position than one who risk jail time if they seek action against that pimp. Also, if you can call the cops, why would you need a pimp?
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### Author:  [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/27 "2009-12-08T17:39:51Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#):
>
> The OP was about repealing _laws_, not about foregoing all morality. I don’t think anyone here has said that we should/shouldn’t completely give up societal constraints. Which is why I don’t understand: "I won’t cite any laws that are strictly based on morality, because that’s contradictory to what I’m trying to say. "
>
> Or are you really a starving artist in disguise and think we were better off in the more conformist-minded fifties?
In my defense, my previous comments in this thread were written when I was _very_ drunk. In all honesty, I’m surprised my posts came as close as they did to making some sort of actual point.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/28 "2009-12-08T18:37:03Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> It seems to me that a prostitute who can take legal action against a coercive pimp is in a much greater power position than one who risk jail time if they seek action against that pimp. Also, if you can call the cops, why would you need a pimp?
Why does an actor need an agent? One good at providing a service might not be good at marketing.
As for the legal rights, women are in abusive relationships now and don’t report. In Berkeley the owner of a chain of restaurants was found to have enslaved a bunch of young women he imported from India. Someone who feels powerless is less likely to blow the whistle. It might be mitigated somewhat by requiring private meetings with the women and social workers, but even that is not going to prevent all abuses.
Like I said, I think this would be beneficial in the long run, but let’s not pretend that the free market will solve all the problems that will come up.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/29 "2009-12-08T22:47:56Z")
What if we murder rich people and seize their property? That would certainly bring in a cash infusion and help with the debt.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/30 "2009-12-08T23:05:34Z")
I (and many others) consider state-run lotteries to be immoral. The government is taking advantage of (mostly) lower income and (mostly) lower educated citizens for economic benefit.
So the precedence has been set. The only question is how many people have to think it’s not immoral before the government approves it? Despite the character of this messageboard, I think you are a long way away from the majority of voters putting aside their moral objections to prostitution or marijuana use.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/31 "2009-12-08T23:16:03Z")
> [@Skammer](#):
>
> I (and many others) consider state-run lotteries to be immoral. The government is taking advantage of (mostly) lower income and (mostly) lower educated citizens for economic benefit.
>
> So the precedence has been set. The only question is how many people have to think it’s not immoral before the government approves it? Despite the character of this messageboard, I think you are a long way away from the majority of voters putting aside their moral objections to prostitution or marijuana use.
In California we allowed medical marijuana quite some time ago, and the tide is turning (maybe already has turned) on legalization. The Feds would stand in the way. Promise people that there would be tax cut along with legalization, and you’d have a landslide.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/32 "2009-12-09T00:23:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> Why does an actor need an agent? One good at providing a service might not be good at marketing.
Ok, that tells them that they need “A” pimp but not “THAT” pimp.
> [@](#):
>
> As for the legal rights, women are in abusive relationships now and don’t report. In Berkeley the owner of a chain of restaurants was found to have enslaved a bunch of young women he imported from India. Someone who feels powerless is less likely to blow the whistle. It might be mitigated somewhat by requiring private meetings with the women and social workers, but even that is not going to prevent all abuses.
It’s not legal to keep people as sex slaves, that would still be illegal under legalized prostitution, and you’ll have an interested industry looking to police itself, and as such you can have legal prostitutes fighting illicit prostitution.
> [@](#):
>
> Like I said, I think this would be beneficial in the long run, but let’s not pretend that the free market will solve all the problems that will come up.
No, it should be regulated, obviously. Incentivize doing it legally if you’re going to do it. A woman who does not feel like she will be arrested for prostitution will be more likely to turn in a man who assaults her.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/33 "2009-12-09T00:40:35Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> It’s not legal to keep people as sex slaves, that would still be illegal under legalized prostitution, and you’ll have an interested industry looking to police itself, and as such you can have legal prostitutes fighting illicit prostitution.
>
> No, it should be regulated, obviously. Incentivize doing it legally if you’re going to do it. A woman who does not feel like she will be arrested for prostitution will be more likely to turn in a man who assaults her.
In the Berkeley case the slaves themselves were not doing anything wrong, yet did not report their abuse. A recent New Yorker had an article on Amsterdam, where prostitution is legal. There is a problem with pimps bringing in girls from other places in Europe, and exploiting them. In the real world an imbalance of power - just as with abused wives - will keep many abused women from reporting their abuse. Especially if turning in their pimp removes their source of livelihood. Some people aren’t whistleblowers because they fear being fired.
The question is: would the increase in reporting from being legal be greater than the increase in abuse because of it becoming more widespread? Will local governments be willing to spend the money needed to regulate properly, money that doesn’t seem to be there even for children?
If all prostitutes are or will become bright, dynamic, independent contractors, then legalization would be a slam dunk.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/34 "2009-12-09T01:35:12Z")
> [@adaher](#):
>
> Well first, although I favor legalizing all vices, I don’t see how they’d stimulate the economy.
At the very least, the government would save billions in law enforcement and corrections costs.
Even if you assume that the REAL effect on GDP would be negligible, since as you rightly point out you’re mostly just turning black market GDP into white market GDP and thus simply increasing the economic activity that you’re counting, not what’s actually happening, you’d be eliminating a massive amount of deadweight loss.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/35 "2009-12-09T01:54:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> Looks like they included “pretrial detainees” for the US but not China.
Of course, in China “pretrial detainment” means '“hold still while I load my gun”.
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### Author:  [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2009, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/36 "2009-12-09T10:09:42Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#):
>
> Absolutely.
>
> Morality is the thing that holds a culture together. Without a common morality a culture doesn’t have jack. It’s a population of what? Economic interests?
>
> It doesn’t even matter what particular form that morality takes, it just has to be shared. To put it another way, destroying a nation’s sense of morality will destroy the country itself.
Wow; I thought Lord Devlin was dead. Turns out he’s alive, well, and on the Dope.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/37 "2009-12-09T17:08:50Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#):
>
> Wow; I thought Lord Devlin was dead. Turns out he’s alive, well, and on the Dope.
George Washington agreed.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/38 "2009-12-09T20:32:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> In California we allowed medical marijuana quite some time ago, and the tide is turning (maybe already has turned) on legalization. The Feds would stand in the way. Promise people that there would be tax cut along with legalization, and you’d have a landslide.
I almost put a qualifier on marijuana, because I think that stands a better chance of being legalized (in some parts of the country) than prostitution.
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### Author:  [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)
#### Post date: [December 10, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/39 "2009-12-10T17:14:52Z")
The devil is always in the details. Will you then institute the same infrastructure as for regulating cigarettes? Can towns ban it? How long before MADD or someone starts rallying against stores selling it and its falling into the hands of under-18’s who are driving under the influence, etc? What roadside sobriety tests?
Can you sell today cigarettes out of the back of your car or from your apartment? Will we need a whole collection of agents like the revenoors chasing down moonshine makers, just to help legitimize the industry?
it’s taken a century for alcohol and tobaco to get to the infrastructure and rules they have today. Expect a wild-west attitude for a while if it is legalized. The current entrepreneurs may take a whiule to learn proper less lethal business tactics, and may resent being bumped out fo the way by WalMart.
(Will they rename them the “Department for Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and THC”?)
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### Author:  [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)
#### Post date: [December 10, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-7-daily-show-immorality-vs-economy/520429/40 "2009-12-10T21:14:05Z")
> [@Superhal](#):
>
> Should morality be an obstacle where the overall health of your country is in the balance?
Is the overall health of the country in the balance?
Is it ok to steal a loaf of bread if you’re starving?
What if you’re merely hungry?
What if you ate yesterday, had a guarantee that you were going to eat tomorrow, but do not have any other way to get food today?
And is the US actually hungry, or really just peckish and rooting around the semi-full refrigerator saying “there’s nothing to eat”?
We should revist the questions of what is or isn’t moral, but are we sure we’re at the point where discussions of jettisoning morality are appropriate?
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