# 12 Angry Men **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [February 23, 2026, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899 "2026-02-23T00:14:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2026, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/61 "2026-02-25T07:40:23Z")
I would guess a Public Defender with 200 other cases on their desk. I vaguely remembered and just looked it up to make sure. It is defendant John Savoka’s sole IMDb credit. It’s not even like they took a crew member and told him, “Sit in this chair, kid, and look scared as we push in on you.” ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2026, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/62 "2026-02-25T09:35:38Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > I would guess a Public Defender with 200 other cases on their desk. That is how pretty much how they desribed his attorney in the movie. That even his attorney didn’t believe in him and didn’t even bother to challenge the witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2026, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/63 "2026-02-25T16:38:19Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > But, I think that a lot of people analyzing the film came away with the impression that the defendant may have been guilty, despite everything discussed in the film to change people’s votes, and maybe that’s what you were remembering. Yeah, that was my impression. I generally only remember impressions of films, and I saw it a long time ago, so I don’t remember the details. I just remember it all feeling so subjective as it unfolded. But if the point was to introduce reasonable doubt, I think he did that. It’s not so much that this kid must be innocent but rather it’s _plausible_ that he was. That’s what beyond a reasonable doubt is, right? (Actual question. Not a lawyer.) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2026, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/64 "2026-02-25T20:03:49Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I think he did that. It’s not so much that this kid must be innocent but rather it’s _plausible_ that he was. That’s what beyond a reasonable doubt is, right? It’s not even plausibility, so much. (Which seems closer to the standard in a civil case, where you are supposed to determine if it’s more likely that one set of facts is true than the other, based on the “preponderance of evidence”.) But rather that you have no good reason to doubt that a person is guilty, which is a high bar. (I’m also not a lawyer, but I’ve been taught that in multiple settings.) ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2026, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/65 "2026-02-25T20:24:43Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > It’s not even plausibility, so much. (Which seems closer to the standard in a civil case, where you are supposed to determine if it’s more likely that one set of facts is true than the other, based on the “preponderance of evidence”.) In a civil case, plausibility is the _pleading_ standard. > **[Twiqbal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twiqbal)** > > Twiqbal is a colloquial term in American law (civil procedure), referring to two separate US Supreme Court cases that heightened the pleading standard under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Together, these cases made it more difficult to sue in federal court by requiring that plaintiffs demonstrate that their claims are "plausible", rather than simply describing the case in sufficient detail to put the defendant on notice. > The two cases are Bell Atlantic Corp. v. Twombly, 550 U.S. 544 (2007... ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2026, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/66 "2026-02-25T20:33:10Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > In a civil case, plausibility is the _pleading_ standard. The case for the plaintiff, yes. ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/67 "2026-02-28T00:18:59Z")
Just a heads up that TCM is airing the movie tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/68 "2026-02-28T00:34:00Z")
Thanks for the tip. I won’t be able to tune in, but I can certainly record it. Looks like there’s a good lineup of courtroom dramas on TCM tonight. Later, they’re showing _Witness for the Prosecution_ followed by _Judgment at Nuremburg_. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/69 "2026-02-28T01:42:08Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > It’s not so much that this kid must be innocent but rather it’s _plausible_ that he was. That’s what beyond a reasonable doubt is, right? (Actual question. Not a lawyer.) Here’s Florida’s jury instruction on reasonable doubt (fairly standard) > [@](#): > > Proof beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean proof beyond all doubt. A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary, or forced doubt. Such a doubt must not influence you to return a verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction of guilt. On the other hand, if, after carefully considering, comparing, and weighing all the evidence, there is not an abiding conviction of guilt, or, if, having a conviction, it is one which is not stable but one which wavers and vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every reasonable doubt, and you must find the defendant not guilty because the doubt is reasonable. > > It is to the evidence introduced in this trial, and to it alone, that you are to look for that proof. > > A reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the defendant may arise from the evidence, conflict in the evidence, or the lack of evidence. > > If you have a reasonable doubt, you should find the defendant not guilty. If you have no reasonable doubt, you should find the defendant guilty. [https://www-media.floridabar.org/uploads/2024/05/3.7.docx](https://www-media.floridabar.org/uploads/2024/05/3.7.docx) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/70 "2026-02-28T02:07:16Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Looks like there’s a good lineup of courtroom dramas on TCM tonight. Later, they’re showing _Witness for the Prosecution_ followed by _Judgment at Nuremburg_. Man, now I’m trying to imagine someone falling asleep while watching a double feature that starts with _Judgment at Nuremberg_ only to wake up during _12 Angry Men_… ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/71 "2026-02-28T03:16:13Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Looks like there’s a good lineup of courtroom dramas on TCM tonight. Yes, for this year’s 31 days of Oscar (playing only movies that have at least been nominated for one Oscar) they are doing it with theme nights. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/72 "2026-02-28T05:22:02Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > And No. 9 turns out to be named “McCardle,” making him at least part Irish or Scottish. Eh. My last name is Maccaby. I’m always getting stuff for McCabby, MacCaby, McAbey. Those hilarious McJews. > [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > from that point on, Juror 10 didn’t utter another word. When he cast his “not guilty” vote, he did it by shaking his head. That’s Ed Begley, not sr., because his son hadn’t registered with the Screen Actors’ Guild yet. > [@Melbourne](#): > > I’ve never read an example of Jury Directions at all. Both times I’ve been on juries, we were told we could believe a witness wholly; not at all; or in part. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/73 "2026-02-28T05:23:20Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Eh. My last name is Maccaby. I’m always getting stuff for McCabby, MacCaby, McAbey. Those hilarious McJews. Ha! Just like my friend Dave Makofsky. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/74 "2026-02-28T05:41:39Z")
One of my favorite things about _12 Angry Men_, the 1957 movie, is that **everybody** on it who isn’t a downright star, is at least a “that guy.” Juror 9 (the old guy) has credits going back to the silents, and was the butler in _The Philadelphia Story_. He might be the _original_ “that guy.” Juror 2 was in one of Dr. Bob Hartley’s groups. They were all really hard working-- they all have long lists of credits that means they must have done something new almost every week of their lives. Even the least famous were still people who made their living acting. None of them needed to work at The Cheesecake Factory. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/75 "2026-02-28T05:49:29Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Juror 2 was in one of Dr. Bob Hartley’s groups. John Feidler was Piglet! . ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/76 "2026-02-28T16:01:47Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Juror 9 (the old guy) has credits going back to the silents, and was the butler in _The Philadelphia Story_. Huh. I had looked him up to see how old he was (73 or so when the movie was made) but I completely missed that. This will give me something else to look for the next time I watch that movie (_TPS_ that is). ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/77 "2026-02-28T17:54:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Man, now I’m trying to imagine someone falling asleep while watching a double feature that starts with _Judgment at Nuremberg_ only to wake up during _12 Angry Men_… And then later being unable to remember which movies he watched. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/78 "2026-02-28T18:00:30Z")
The alternate ending to _Judgement at Nuremberg_ where Henry Fonda convinces everybody to let the Nazis off only aired once on a few independent TV channels sometime in the the 1990s. Several Dopers can attest to this fact. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/79 "2026-02-28T18:18:50Z")
I’m pretty sure you’re thinking of _Third Reich Going On Thirty._ ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2026, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899/80 "2026-02-28T18:49:20Z")
Well they were just following orders. Sounded reasonable at the time to at least one person maybe. 😈 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-angry-men/1027899.md?page=5)