# $12 Billion in Aid Going to Farmers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515 "2018-07-24T17:48:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/181 "2018-07-30T03:30:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Their pattern suggests they’ll just declare it fake news and say that anyone reporting the slowdown is unpatriotic. They’re already ‘working the refs’ when it comes to the economics numbers crunchers and reporters. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/182 "2018-07-30T03:31:14Z")
If there’s no trade war, what the hell are we giving an extra $12b to farmers for? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/183 "2018-07-30T03:33:33Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > 1.5 % is nowhere near 4.1%. > > Did you complain when the previous administration imposed a 35% tariff on Chinese tires? > > Somehow, I doubt it. No because there’s a difference between selective, measured responses and “pull it out of your ass” trade policies. I can’t speak for others, but for the record, I’ve never had a problem with the idea that Trump could/should renegotiate bad trade agreements of any stripe, and I’ve sure as hell never argued that he couldn’t become more aggressive with China - actually it’s overdue. But the manner in which he has chosen to go about this is reckless, and shows a blatant disregard for the potential economic consequences in return. The fact that he’s already resorting to $12 billion in farm aid is already a damning admission on his part: an admission that he has really no fucking clue what he’s gotten himself into. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/184 "2018-07-30T03:36:13Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Yes, and they were renegotiated with the EU a few days ago. It was in the papers. And Trump’s word is worth…what exactly? Do you really believe that this is the last we’re ever going to hear about EU trade deficits? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/185 "2018-07-30T03:42:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It keeps Big Ag in business. The farmers won’t plant if they don’t see the payoff coming. This system is MLM-like, the farmer at the bottom has to buy his seed from Big Ag who tells him how much to plant and controls what he produces. Big Ag doesn’t take risks in doing this, the farmer has to pay the costs of the farm whether he profits from it or not. The farmer isn’t able to negotiate what he gets from what he produces, he gets paid a rate determined by the big companies that control the prices and the supply. If farmers are going to lose money on their current crops then they’ve made a fool’s deal, we are talking about commodities and the price received should have been determined when the crops were planted. I think the problem is what Big Ag is offering to pay for next years crop, not enough to cover the money owed by farmers on their land and equipment. These aren’t little Ma and Pa farms any more, a farm owner with a small crew and use high capacity equipment to work record high acreage on land bought out from the old family farms that went under back in the 80s. Their farms are worth millions except when they are underwater in debt. Big Ag needs these farms to keep fulfilling this rotten deal to rake in the big profits otherwise they’d have to start assuming the risks themselves. And the farmers want to keep on calling themselves independent men and courageous men who work the earth so they can vote for Trump and against anyone else receiving welfare or any of the benefits they receive from this system they put in place to try to guarantee themselves a profit and now complain about when it backfires. TriPolar, I meant to reply earlier. Actually, I think your analysis of the relationship between big ag and farming is pretty cogent, I must admit. Still, I think we might be overthinking a bit (just my opinion). I suppose that big ag is a factor to some degree, but I think it starts with the solvency of the farmers. Moreover, failed farms impact other sectors of the economy, such banks and ordinary consumers like you and me. Fewer producers equals inflation, which pretty much wipes out that tax cut that the GOP’s been crowing about. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/186 "2018-07-30T04:47:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (I’ll set aside the “all other … combined” which seems to use arithmetic procedures—or a dialect of English— that I’m not familiar with.) > > The right-wing meme that it is D’s and not R’s who pump up the national debt is one I’m grateful for: It immediately teaches us which Dopers are not completely competent to understand or Google simple facts. Thank you, **CelticKnot**. Right back atchya, Septimus. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/187 "2018-07-30T06:24:21Z")
And thanks as well for another addition to our menagerie of citation sources! _Freedom Outpost!_ Why, the name is fairly drenched in good ol’ American Americanism! Advertising another, the _Liberty Press_, which, we are assured, is “The CONSERVATIVE alternative to Drudge”… Do we have a volunteer? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/188 "2018-07-30T07:17:13Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > [https://freedomoutpost.com/farmers-to-trump-we-dont-want-handouts-we-want-a-quick-return-to-free-trade/](https://freedomoutpost.com/farmers-to-trump-we-dont-want-handouts-we-want-a-quick-return-to-free-trade/) You can’t make me click on that. If this were facebook that would be a link to an aptly-named group. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/189 "2018-07-30T19:38:17Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > What does everyone think about the $12 billion in aid that will be going to farmers hurt by the tariffs? > > I’m against that. First, since trade wars are good and easy to win, the farmers shouldn’t need any help. Second, that’s $12 billion that could be used elsewhere – pay down debt, education, student loan relief, health care. Third, it’s such a transparent ploy to help his supporters. > > When is Trump going to understand that he represents the whole country, not just his voters? (Answer, of course, is never – he really only represents himself anyway) How much tax revenue do the tariffs collect? When trade is grossly imbalanced, tariffs are fair game. Give the market time, expanded businesses or new business can satisfy the demands of the USA consumer or the other consumers abroad. China does not trade fairly and has been accused of manipulating their own monetary system to gain an unfair advantage. You can’t judge a tariff in 2 months. My guess is in time there will be some concessions made from nations with the largest trade imbalances with the USA. After all, they depend on us for the exports more so that we depend on them for the products. Farmers often get political aid regardless of who is President. ---
**Author:** ![postpic200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@postpic200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postpic200)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/190 "2018-07-30T20:09:19Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I think you can see from your examples that an ideological position of “no subsidies” is more trouble than it’s worth, in practice. Subsidies for biofuel development? Payments for conservation? If something is helpful, and it serves a given public policy beyond just wanting to give a constituent money, then it’s not “just a handout.” > > Although I’m no fan of the protectionist policies against foreign sugar, in particular. Let’s say we didn’t have subsidies, for biofuel, then what, biofuel been researched to death, and yes there is an answer, but it can’t compete with the fuel we are using. In the early 80’s, if I remember right, the numbers said once oil hits $100 a barrel then it would pay to switch. Same with fuel mileage, gas hit 5+ a gallon then people start moving to more fuel efficient cars and trucks. But as long as people vote for “free” money then you’re right in practice it won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/191 "2018-07-30T22:11:45Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > You can’t judge a tariff in 2 months. My guess is in time there will be some concessions made from nations with the largest trade imbalances with the USA. How much time? 4 months? 6? A year? Or just however long it takes until things support your preferred narrative? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![burrunderthe\_saddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@burrunderthe\_saddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burrunderthe_saddle)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/192 "2018-07-31T14:09:05Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You can’t make me click on that. > > If this were facebook that would be a link to an aptly-named group. For cadets that can’t click and read out of some fear of association! [https://freedomoutpost.com/farmers-to-trump-we-dont-want-handouts-we-want-a-quick-return-to-free-trade/](https://freedomoutpost.com/farmers-to-trump-we-dont-want-handouts-we-want-a-quick-return-to-free-trade/) The article cited a Bloomberg report: > [@](#): > > In interview after interview, farmers delivered essentially the same response to President Donald Trump’s pledge yesterday to provide $12 billion in assistance: It’s nice to know you’re thinking about us, Mr. President, but what we want is a quick return to free trade. It’s “better to get our income from the marketplace than from the government,” Bredehoeft said. > > This clear-cut position from the agriculture sector reveals in part why U.S. lawmakers – including many in Trump’s own party, such as Nebraska Senator Ben Sasse and Tennessee Senator Bob Corker – were so forceful in pushing back against the proposal on Tuesday. > > The planned aid is a mix of direct payments to farmers, purchases of agricultural commodities for food-aid programs, and the stepped-up promotion of new export markets. The package has offended the sensibilities of many farmers who supported both Trump and a party that historically champions small government and free trade – even if farmers are already the regular recipient of government aid, including an estimated $9.2 billion in payments this year alone. This report pretty much disputes much of the disparagement of farmers on this thread. PS: I have observed that very few posters to this board know anything about the agri industry and do not care to know as typified by Budget Player Cadet post. Educate thy selves! ---
**Author:** ![burrunderthe\_saddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@burrunderthe\_saddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burrunderthe_saddle)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/193 "2018-07-31T14:34:45Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Farmers often get political aid regardless of who is President. Did you ever wonder why that is? Me knows that it not a political thing! It is an infrastructure thing! Price supports are necessary to protect the farming infrastructure from price drops resulting from bumper crops in Uzbekistan or other large agri commodity producing countries. ---
**Author:** ![burrunderthe\_saddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@burrunderthe\_saddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burrunderthe_saddle)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/194 "2018-07-31T14:40:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And thanks as well for another addition to our menagerie of citation sources! _Freedom Outpost!_ Why, the name is fairly drenched in good ol’ American Americanism! Advertising another, the _Liberty Press_, which, we are assured, is “The CONSERVATIVE alternative to Drudge”… > > Do we have a volunteer? Thank you, the flock must be elucidated not to partake of American Americanism nor any information that would upset the body politic. ! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/195 "2018-07-31T15:21:53Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Still, I think we might be overthinking a bit (just my opinion). I suppose that big ag is a factor to some degree, but I think it starts with the solvency of the farmers. Moreover, failed farms impact other sectors of the economy, such banks and ordinary consumers like you and me. Fewer producers equals inflation, which pretty much wipes out that tax cut that the GOP’s been crowing about. This is definitely a complicated issue. This relationship between Big Ag and farmers is a marriage made in hell that will keep on creating this economic situation where the farmers and the taxpayers pay the price for corporate profits. I can’t say I know of a solution.but the romantic notion of simple farmers working the soil is just a political fiction. ---
**Author:** ![burrunderthe\_saddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@burrunderthe\_saddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burrunderthe_saddle)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/196 "2018-07-31T16:23:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This is definitely a complicated issue. This relationship between Big Ag and farmers is a marriage made in hell that will keep on creating this economic situation where the farmers and the taxpayers pay the price for corporate profits. I can’t say I know of a solution.but the romantic notion of simple farmers working the soil is just a political fiction. It is mind boggling the lack of understanding of the agri industry 1. Most farms are LLC’s (corporations) consisting of one or more farmer families sharing overhead expenses. 2. Families in America enjoy profits (not a bad thing) and is equal to their disposable income after all living expenses are paid. This is true for the farmer as well. 3. Farmers are not simple! Do not disparage. It is politically incorrect. 4. Speaking in stereotypes does not uncomplicate issue. Thanks for sharing! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/197 "2018-07-31T16:36:45Z")
> [@burrunderthe\_saddle](#): > > This report pretty much disputes much of the disparagement of farmers on this thread. Most of the “disparagement of farmers on this thread” is actually disparagement of the common conservative practice of condemning recipients of government largesse as ‘scroungers’…unless they happen to reliably vote Republican, in which case it’s all good. (See also: “Unions are bad, except for Our Brave Boys in Blue in the police unions”) > [@](#): > > PS: I have observed that very few posters to this board know anything about the agri industry and do not care to know as typified by Budget Player Cadet post. Educate thy selves! We’re educated enough to have seen the “Clearly the reason you’re not taking my hyperpartisan site seriously is because you’re afraid of the facts!” argument many, many times, and it doesn’t become any more compelling upon further repetition. Perhaps you might also consider some self-education. And you shouldn’t assume that just because we don’t agree with you, we don’t know anything about agribusiness. You’d be surprised what many members of this messageboard know and, indeed, do IRL. Also, you might want to reread **Tripolar** ’s post because your responses don’t necessarily make sense in the context of that post (most notably, you appear to think that **Tripolar** was promoting the stereotype of the “simple farmer” when s/he specifically said it \*\*wasn’t \*\*real). ---
**Author:** ![burrunderthe\_saddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@burrunderthe\_saddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burrunderthe_saddle)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/198 "2018-07-31T18:08:22Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Most of the “disparagement of farmers on this thread” is actually disparagement of the common conservative practice of condemning recipients of government largesse as ‘scroungers’…unless they happen to reliably vote Republican, in which case it’s all good. (See also: “Unions are bad, except for Our Brave Boys in Blue in the police unions”) > > We’re educated enough to have seen the “Clearly the reason you’re not taking my hyperpartisan site seriously is because you’re afraid of the facts!” argument many, many times, and it doesn’t become any more compelling upon further repetition. Perhaps you might also consider some self-education. > > And you shouldn’t assume that just because we don’t agree with you, we don’t know anything about agribusiness. You’d be surprised what many members of this messageboard know and, indeed, do IRL. Also, you might want to reread **Tripolar** ’s post because your responses don’t necessarily make sense in the context of that post (most notably, you appear to think that **Tripolar** was promoting the stereotype of the “simple farmer” when s/he specifically said it \*\*wasn’t \*\*real). 1. Much like the the common liberal practice condemning farm subsidies in this thread! 2. When the claim "educated enough"is made it usually means they are not! 3. Most posts are merely rhetoric conveying little information or knowledge of the subject matter. I would advise to walk a mile in a farmers shoes! Political action against the farmer will only result in reaping what you sow. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/199 "2018-07-31T18:12:22Z")
Tariffs were political action against the farmer, so are you predicting Trump’s demise? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/200 "2018-07-31T18:13:29Z")
> [@burrunderthe\_saddle](#): > > 1. Much like the the common liberal practice condemning farm subsidies in this thread! > 2. When the claim "educated enough"is made it usually means they are not! > 3. Most posts are merely rhetoric conveying little information or knowledge of the subject matter. > > I would advise to walk a mile in a farmers shoes! > > Political action against the farmer will only result in reaping what you sow. I don’t see any useful information in your posts, you are just criticizing what others have written, and apparently without reading their posts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=11)