# $12 Billion in Aid Going to Farmers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515 "2018-07-24T17:48:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/41 "2018-07-25T12:38:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Why should student loans be the only loans that are [nearly impossible to discharge through bankruptcy](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-fix-the-bankruptcy-system-for-student-loan-borrowers-2018-05-25)? No one would ever have to pay for college. Just file Chapter 7 the day you graduate, the books are cleared, and it’s all off your credit history before you get really established in a career anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/42 "2018-07-25T14:11:35Z")
So much for the free market. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/43 "2018-07-25T14:15:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Let the farmer, so far as I am concerned, be damned forevermore! To > hell with him, and bad luck to him! He is,unless I err, no hero at > all, and no priest, and no altruist, but simply a tedious fraud and > ignoramus, a cheap rogue and hypocrite, the eternal Jack of the human > pack. He deserves all that he suffers under our economic system, and > more. Any city man, not insane, who sheds tears for him is shedding > the tears of the crocodile." > > “No more grasping, selfish and dishonest mammal, indeed, is known to > students of the Anthropoidea. When the going is good for him he robs > the rest of us up to the extreme limits of our endurance; when the > going is bad he comes bawling for help out of the public till. Has > anyone ever heard of a farmer makng any sacrifice of his own > interests, however slight, to the common good? Has anyone ever heard > of a farmer practicing or advocating any political idea that was not > absolutely self-seeking – that was not, in fact, delibertely designed > to loot the rest of us to his gain? Greenbackism, free silver, > government guarantee of prices, all the complex fiscal imbecilities of > the cow state John Baptists – these are the contributions of the > virtuous husbandman to American political theory . . . . Yet we are > asked to venerate this prehensile moron as . . . the foundation stone > of the state!”\*\* -Mencken ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/44 "2018-07-25T14:21:02Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So the farmers of America are going to be a bunch of welfare bums - moochers and takers, huh? > > Oh, that’s right - they’re overwhelmingly white. > > Well now, that’s different. So the other welfare bums are not overwhelmingly “white”? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/45 "2018-07-25T14:21:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No one would ever have to pay for college. Just file Chapter 7 the day you graduate, the books are cleared, and it’s all off your credit history before you get really established in a career anyway. Exactly. Student loans shouldn’t have to be paid back at all, just like welfare for farmers. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/46 "2018-07-25T14:22:21Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > So much for the free market. Good candidate for the motto of a declining society. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/47 "2018-07-25T14:23:52Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > If student loans are dischargable through bankruptcy, it’s likely there would be fewer made as they would be riskier for the entities making them. That’s the idea. Banks would never loan $50,000 to 18 year olds with zero assets or credit anyway, unless the government guaranteed the loan. Well the kids grew up, they can’t repay the loan, and now the government should make good on its guarantees. It’s not the kids’ fault they believed all the adults who told them college loans were a surefire investment. And maybe in the future we’ll stop guaranteeing loans to teenagers with zero credit or assets. Because it’s an ignorant thing to do. And banks will stop making those loans, and that will remove a lot of upward pressure on tuition prices. Surprisingly, people are a lot more price sensitive when they actually have to foot the bill. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/48 "2018-07-25T14:25:06Z")
If you could declare bankruptcy on student loans, they wouldn’t exist in any recognizable form. Bankruptcy is profoundly anti-capitalist. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/49 "2018-07-25T14:52:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you could declare bankruptcy on student loans, they wouldn’t exist in any recognizable form. Bankruptcy is profoundly anti-capitalist. That’s not a a bug, that’s a feature. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/50 "2018-07-25T15:11:57Z")
$12 billion is not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things. At least not compared to the trillion dollars of outstanding student loans. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/51 "2018-07-25T15:16:57Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > ‘I never thought leopards would eat MY face,’ sobs deplorable farmer who voted for the Leopards Eating People’s Faces Party. Bravo 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/52 "2018-07-25T15:33:28Z")
And if you could declare bankruptcy on business loans, that’d be profoundly anti-capitalist, too. But we’ve got a President who got to where he is by doing exactly that, multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/53 "2018-07-25T15:45:16Z")
I’m sorry I mentioned the other things that this $12 billion could be used for, so the various hijacks are mostly my fault. Can we get back to discussing the merits of this? Does anyone want to defend this wealth transfer from taxpayers to farmers due to a ridiculous trade war with these foreseeable consequences? Where are the usual Trump fans? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/54 "2018-07-25T15:59:51Z")
I had a whole bunch of quotes from this thread abut student loan debt, but they mucked up this post so I deleted them; pretend they’re all here tho, eh. * * * This is may be enough a hijack that it deserves it’s own thread. Perhaps y’all haven’t heard that there is a movement afoot to reform student loans, and some of the complaints in this thread are also what they aim to fix or bypass. In this plan, students would be indebted directly to the university in exchange for a pledge of a portion of their future earnings. > **[Some colleges asking for share of future salary to avoid loans](https://nypost.com/2018/07/23/some-colleges-asking-for-share-of-future-salary-to-avoid-loans/)** > > MONTPELIER, Vt. — As more students balk at the debt loads they face after graduation, some colleges are offering an alternative: We’ll pay your tuition if you offer us a percentage of your fu… > [@](#): > > Norwich University announced Tuesday that it will become the latest school to offer this type of contract, known as an income share agreement. Norwich’s program is starting out on a small scale, mainly for students who do not have access to other types of loans or those who are taking longer than the traditional eight semesters to finish their degree. > > “Norwich University is committed to offering this new way to help pay for college in a way that aligns incentives and helps reduce financial barriers to degree completion,” said Lauren Wobby, the school’s chief financial officer and treasurer. > [@](#): > > In contrast with traditional loans, in which students will simply pay down the principal and interest until there is nothing left, students with income share agreements pay back a percentage of their salary for a set period of time. Those touting the programs say they give colleges greater incentive to help students find high-earning jobs after graduation, because a higher salary means the school may recoup its investment in a shorter period of time. > [@](#): > > “Taking on the debt through a contract, where you don’t take on a debt per se but instead will repay a portion of your future income, has a certain appeal to students when the concept is fully explained to them,” said Clare McCann, deputy director for education policy at the New America Foundation. > **[Income-share agreements are a novel way to pay tuition fees](https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2018/07/19/income-share-agreements-are-a-novel-way-to-pay-tuition-fees)** > > They shift risk from students to investors and nudge universities to think about employability > [@](#): > > Salaries for new pilots are low. Mr Hoyler made $1,900 per month in his first year of work. Without the ISA, monthly loan payments would have been more than $1,300. Instead, for the next eight-and-a-half years he will pay 7.83% of his income. He thinks that, as his pay accelerates, he will end up paying $300-400 more each month than with a loan. But low early payments, and the certainty that they would stay low if his earnings did, made an ISA the better option, he says. “I’ve been able to pay what I could afford.” > [@](#): > > ISAs, by contrast, act as equity, not debt, with investors taking a share in a future income stream. Risk is shifted from students to investors, who can pool and diversify it. Graduates who fail to land steady or lucrative work will pay less than the cost of their tuition. Caps on repayment mean high-fliers do not end up paying back fortunes. ISAs also align the interests of borrower and lender, since investor returns are tied to a student’s career progress. Investors will offer better terms to students at universities whose graduates earn well. > > ISAs have been mooted before as a way to spare American graduates from mountains of debt. In 2014 bills were introduced in Congress that would have put them on a firm legal footing—setting maximum loan terms, for example, and ruling that, like ordinary student debt, they would not be dischargeable by declaring bankruptcy. One firm, Upstart, briefly marketed them directly to consumers. But the bills went nowhere and the idea fizzled. > > Similar proposals are once more being considered in Congress, but that is not the main reason why ISAs are attracting attention again. What has put them back on the agenda is the involvement of universities, which are starting to offer ISAs through their financial-aid offices, with outside investors providing some of the capital. Universities spy a way to lower their students’ debt burden and spare them from having to take out private loans. Investors regard this as a sign that an institution is confident in its graduates’ earning power, which reassures them about the extra risk in an equity arrangement, compared with conventional student debt. Any day now, someone’s gonna go ahead and start selling shares in their own future, and then we’ll be living in [_The Unincorporated Man_](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4025200-the-unincorporated-man). This college loan scheme is already that, just on a limited scale, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/55 "2018-07-25T16:01:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And if you could declare bankruptcy on business loans, that’d be profoundly anti-capitalist, too. But we’ve got a President who got to where he is by doing exactly that, multiple times. Yes. Just the threat of bankruptcy allowed him to renegotiate loans. Not possible with student loans. Hope that works with the Chinese who hold most of our debt. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/56 "2018-07-25T16:17:07Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m sorry I mentioned the other things that this $12 billion could be used for, so the various hijacks are mostly my fault. > > Can we get back to discussing the merits of this? Does anyone want to defend this wealth transfer from taxpayers to farmers due to a ridiculous trade war with these foreseeable consequences? Where are the usual Trump fans? I’m not a Trump fan, but I will say that if this wealth transfer is in fact just the usual wealth transfer that the farmers always get rather than a new wealth transfer on top of the existing wealth transfer, then this wealth transfer would be, in that case, no worse that the usual wealth transfer it actually is. I confess I’m still not clear whether this $12 is a new thing, or just the old thing with a new name. wealth transfer wealth transfer wealth transfer wealth transfer ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/57 "2018-07-25T16:29:56Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Well, no, it is going to happen. The administration is drawing on some emergency fund. It’s like the old saying: “Use all the food and supplies from your hurricane shelter while the sun is shining.” _Of course_ an emergency fund is for bailing yourself out of problems of your own making. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/58 "2018-07-25T16:31:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And if you could declare bankruptcy on business loans, that’d be profoundly anti-capitalist, too. But we’ve got a President who got to where he is by doing exactly that, multiple times. Yes he’s the 44th president to have done something anti-capitalist. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/59 "2018-07-25T16:34:15Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m sorry I mentioned the other things that this $12 billion could be used for, so the various hijacks are mostly my fault. > > Can we get back to discussing the merits of this? Does anyone want to defend this wealth transfer from taxpayers to farmers due to a ridiculous trade war with these foreseeable consequences? Where are the usual Trump fans? Yeah, where are the usual wealth transfer fans? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/60 "2018-07-25T16:35:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m not a Trump fan, but I will say that if this wealth transfer is in fact just the usual wealth transfer that the farmers always get rather than a new wealth transfer on top of the existing wealth transfer, then this wealth transfer would be, in that case, no worse that the usual wealth transfer it actually is. > > I confess I’m still not clear whether this $12 is a new thing, or just the old thing with a new name. It’s not clear to me either whether this is just business as usual (this fund is regularly used to send billions to farmers) or something over and above the usual. If this is business as usual, this is phenomenally bad reporting by the NY Times and WaPo. I can’t nail this down either way – can someone find something to either back up the NY Times/WaPo or **Ravenman** , et al? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=4)