# $12 Billion in Aid Going to Farmers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515 "2018-07-24T17:48:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/81 "2018-07-25T18:56:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I would argue that the free market outcome is always optimal by this arbitrary metric: minimized government initiation of force. > > What arbitrary metric do you choose? Well, for a starter I would consider everyone starving to death to be bad - sufficiently bad to merit increased government initiation of force (whatever that means). There are of course other scenarios that justify government action, but I only need one to state that ‘minimized government initiation of force’ is not a universally optimal metric. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/82 "2018-07-25T19:03:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well, for a starter I would consider everyone starving to death to be bad - sufficiently bad to merit increased government initiation of force (whatever that means). > > There are of course other scenarios that justify government action, but I only need one to state that ‘minimized government initiation of force’ is not a universally optimal metric. What do you mean by “universally optimal metric”? Do you believe any metric is “universally optimal” and not arbitrary? My claim was not that my arbitrary metric was universal, but that my metric is minimized by a free market. The free market does minimize starvation, though. It does so by maximizing long-run production through capital investment and the division of labor. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/83 "2018-07-25T19:04:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Presuming that’s the case, then in my opinion we should utterly end farm subsidies. Let the farmers take out loans or go on normal welfare like the rest of us. The family farm has not really been a viable business model since the great depression. It was largely that that caused the economic hardship in the first place. We can drive ourselves into a new depression trying to keep family farms afloat, or we can recognize the reality of the situation, and see that, like all industries, there are benefits from efficiencies of scale, and reverse the 20% corporate 80% private ownership. There is a niche for the small family farm, just as there is a niche for small automakers or small retail stores. However, there is also a need for bulk production of food, which is made least efficient when you have millions of people duplicating efforts that can be combined. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/84 "2018-07-25T19:59:20Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Right, and the liberal / nanny state position should be to ask how screwed will we be if that occurs, because not all free market outcomes are beneficial (much less optimal). > > That said, if society can live with fewer inefficient soybean farmers, then letting the invisible hand slap them around should be fine. I think the liberal position would be: let the inefficient soybean farmers fail, but make sure there are safety nets that allow them to survive & train for other jobs. Or just don’t get into a trade war in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/85 "2018-07-25T20:14:41Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What do you mean by “universally optimal metric”? Do you believe any metric is “universally optimal” and not arbitrary? My claim was not that my arbitrary metric was universal, but that my metric is minimized by a free market. > > The free market does minimize starvation, though. It does so by maximizing long-run production through capital investment and the division of labor. Hey man, you’re the one who (rather bizarrely) suddenly started asking me to start proposing competing metrics. Don’t ask _me_ what sort of standards should be used for this discussion of yours. Myself, I’ve moment ago said that I’m basically fine with allowing the heartless hand of the free market crush the farmers in its steely grip. So long as it’s not detrimental to society, that is - and it appears the rest of us can get along just fine. So screw 'em! Just as the free market demands. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/86 "2018-07-25T20:23:20Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Hey man, you’re the one who (rather bizarrely) suddenly started asking me to start proposing competing metrics. Don’t ask _me_ what sort of standards should be used for this discussion of yours. Well you said free market outcomes are not always optimal. I disagreed and explained why by giving my metric and asked what your metric was. Sometimes when someone says something is not optimal, they are just using a rhetorical flourish to say they don’t like it. Sometimes they have a metric in mind. In that case, ideally, we can all come together objectively and decide under what conditions that metric is optimized. > [@](#): > > Myself, I’ve moment ago said that I’m basically fine with allowing the heartless hand of the free market crush the farmers in its steely grip. So long as it’s not detrimental to society, that is - and it appears the rest of us can get along just fine. So screw 'em! Just as the free market demands. Oh ok, hi-five. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/87 "2018-07-25T20:48:59Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Just another example of your fiscally conservative, small-government Republicans at work! Turning farmers into welfare queens. What’s gonna happen to all the soybeans? Is the government going to just give money to the farmers and get nothing in return, buy the soybeans at above-market rates and store them, buy them and let them rot, or pay the farmers not to plant? It’s easy to just call it welfare, but the details intrigue me. And some of the options make the government look stupider than others. > [@begbert2](#): > > So I guess it comes down to, exactly how screwed would the farmers be without the extra money, and how screwed would the rest of us be if we let them eat it in the teeth as an object lesson? I don’t think they’ll starve, but I hope they like soybeans. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/88 "2018-07-25T20:59:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Well you said free market outcomes are not always optimal. I disagreed and explained why by giving my metric and asked what your metric was. Sometimes when someone says something is not optimal, they are just using a rhetorical flourish to say they don’t like it. Sometimes they have a metric in mind. In that case, ideally, we can all come together objectively and decide under what conditions that metric is optimized. This ain’t really the thread to do a full-on rebuttal of the fantasy that the free market fixes everything optimally and makes rainbows and unicorns fly out of everyone’s butts. For the purpose of this thread I refuse to use examples unrelated to farms, farmers, and farm subsidies, so everybody starving is the example I’ve got. If that doesn’t do it for you (and if we all agree that it’s _awesome_ that inefficient farmers are driven out of the market forced to eat each other to survive) then as far as this thread is concerned I got nothin’. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Oh ok, hi-five. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/89 "2018-07-25T21:09:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I would argue that the free market outcome is always optimal by this arbitrary metric: minimized government initiation of force. The free market is the best because the free market is the free market? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/90 "2018-07-25T21:47:51Z")
Just a heads up that I’m back at work tomorrow and will be giving this thread much less attention. I don’t like to start threads that I can’t keep contributing to, but that may be the case here. It’s too bad – I was hoping to see some defense of the policy (I saw some sort-of half-hearted defenses), especially from some of our biggest 45 fans. I’d still love a definitive answer as to whether this is really an increase or just a renamed status quo. If it’s an increase, I’m agin’ it. If it’s the status quo, I’d like to do a preemptive Ha Ha to those supporters that bought it as actual help. RS ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/91 "2018-07-25T22:26:34Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Besides a student loan, what other type of loan doesn’t require collateral? Let’s see Student loan debt $1.5 trillion Credit card debt $1 trillion. Fairly comparable there. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/92 "2018-07-25T23:45:49Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Let’s see Student loan debt $1.5 trillion > Credit card debt $1 trillion. > > Fairly comparable there. At least with your credit card debt, hopefully you got something of value. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/93 "2018-07-26T00:08:23Z")
It would be better if you took into account the number of holders of the debt. I would imagine there are fewer student loan holders than credit card debt holders. Hell I’d even hazard a guess they overlap. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/94 "2018-07-26T00:21:16Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > What’s gonna happen to all the soybeans? Is the government going to just give money to the farmers and get nothing in return, buy the soybeans at above-market rates and store them, buy them and let them rot, or pay the farmers not to plant? It’s easy to just call it welfare, but the details intrigue me. And some of the options make the government look stupider than others. If the bailout is run like every other governmental farming subsidy - all of the above. $12B is nothing compared to the farm losses trump has caused. Hell, we’ve lost $12B in soybeans just in Kansas alone. And we aren’t ever going to get those markets back, at least not in our lifetimes. There is already over-production in corn and wheat. Just what are those farmers supposed to plant and where are they supposed to sell it? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/95 "2018-07-26T00:25:42Z")
Tell 'em to plant Democratic this fall. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/96 "2018-07-26T00:38:06Z")
They better figure out something, because we are about one growing season away from another Dust Bowl. The fields can’t just lay fallow, not with increased weather due to climate change. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/97 "2018-07-26T00:50:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **WillFarnaby** : > > Decisions should be made on the margin to decrease government intervention at every increment. That would result in a heck of a lot more people victimized and a heck of a lot less people benefitted than what we currently have. It’d also result in the complete destruction of the free market. You cannot hold both “minimal governmental intervention” and “absolute free market” as absolute virtues, because they conflict. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/98 "2018-07-26T00:55:42Z")
New or not, the $12 billion is a drop in the ocean of lost ag profits. However, it does come with some spiffy new [hats](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/24/trump-trade-aid-for-farmers-737108): > [@](#): > > The president’s interest in reassuring an anxious farm sector was evident on Monday when he gave a shout-out to farmers during an event at the White House while unveiling new campaign-style hats that say, “Make Our Farmers Great Again.” > > “Make our farmers great again. That’s what’s happening,” Trump said, as he showed off one of the green hats with yellow lettering — a color scheme resembling that used by tractor maker John Deere. Trump said he just had the new hats made. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/99 "2018-07-26T01:28:38Z")
“Trump said he just had the new hats made.” … in China. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/100 "2018-07-26T02:53:08Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > If the bailout is run like every other governmental farming subsidy - all of the above. $12B is nothing compared to the farm losses trump has caused. Hell, we’ve lost $12B in soybeans just in Kansas alone. And we aren’t ever going to get those markets back, at least not in our lifetimes. There is already over-production in corn and wheat. Just what are those farmers supposed to plant and where are they supposed to sell it? Well, since Chinese-made goods are now more expensive here, that creates an opportunity for Americans to become competitive in those areas. I suggest the farmers plant iPhones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=6)