# $12 Billion in Aid Going to Farmers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515 "2018-07-24T17:48:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/121 "2018-07-27T00:35:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Many of us do. I put in more than that a week, where’s my bailout? This probably isn’t a good question to ask. It could easily be changed to “I work more than 80 hours a month, where is my free food money?” ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/122 "2018-07-27T00:41:23Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > There was no math involved actually. I was extrapolating to what the farmers do (or don’t) to what welfare recipients do (or don’t) > > … Farmers ARE welfare recipients. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/123 "2018-07-27T01:18:44Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > You ever worked a farm? Neither have I. But my grandfather did and I saw what it was like. Hard goddamned work from dawn to dusk. Is that enough of a hoop to jump through? > > But we might consider the affects that hurting farmers may have on other aspects of society. Like day laborers, truckers, grocery stores, restaurants, all the other businesses that those buy shit from, and of course, you and me paying more for our food. So, are you saying that the bailout is good or the tariffs are bad or what? Should we be sending checks to any worker whose job has effects on other aspects of society? Truckers work damn hard and the economy would grind to a halt without them – certainly they should get some of that sweet welfare, right? BTW, farming today (at least corn and soybeans) is not like it was in your grandfather’s time. Many farms are harvested using GPS-controlled combines. A couple of farmers can farm many times the number of acres that they could 80 years ago. Also, you don’t even need to work the farm to be eligible for farm aid (not sure about this bailout money) – if you own a farm but rent it to farmers to actually do the work, you can get some of that sweet, sweet farm welfare. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/124 "2018-07-27T02:06:03Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > You ever worked a farm? Neither have I. But my grandfather did and I saw what it was like. Hard goddamned work from dawn to dusk. Is that enough of a hoop to jump through? > > But we might consider the affects that hurting farmers may have on other aspects of society. Like day laborers, truckers, grocery stores, restaurants, all the other businesses that those buy shit from, and of course, you and me paying more for our food. Think a few things might have changed since your grandfather was farming? Family farms are generally less efficient and profitable than larger corporations. Farmers are being hurt right now because prices are LOW - how is that going to raise the cost of food? The likely outcome, if this joke of “national security” continues, is that more small farms are gobbled up by large ones. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/125 "2018-07-27T02:08:09Z")
Recently, Betsy DeVos saved $13 billion of our money from going to forgive fraudulent student loans, so the $12 billion to farmers is all good and the deficit goes down by a billion! More winning! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/126 "2018-07-27T11:57:29Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > You ever worked a farm? Neither have I. But my grandfather did and I saw what it was like. Hard goddamned work from dawn to dusk. Is that enough of a hoop to jump through? > > But we might consider the affects that hurting farmers may have on other aspects of society. Like day laborers, truckers, grocery stores, restaurants, all the other businesses that those buy shit from, and of course, you and me paying more for our food. We all know that farmers work hard. It does depend on what you farm, my grandfather had a cherry farm and to be honest, it didn’t seem like that much work. You might do some pruning and spraying, plant a few trees to replace some old ones. For the harvesting, he hired migrant work. I wasn’t trying to make the point that farmers don’t work hard, most of them do. What I was trying to make is this point: White rural America voted overwhelmingly to put Donald in office. They cheer when he wanted to ban Muslims from entering the US. They cheered when he called Mexicans rapists, murderers, and drug dealers. They’re all in for voter suppression in the inner city. They regularly vote for the party that has tried for 80 years to kill Social Security and tried for 50 years to kill Medicare. Yet when the moron that they put in office pulls a boneheaded move that hurts their bottom line- well then they’re all too willing to suck on the government teat. They’re all for making people who can’t find a job in the inner city take drug tests and do volunteer work in order to collect welfare, I think it’s only fair that they submit to what they demand for others. I think of them like the subject of Like A Rolling Stone: “now you don’t talk so loud, now you don’t seem so proud”. And so, white rural America, how does it feel? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/127 "2018-07-27T12:09:14Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > What does everyone think about the $12 billion in aid that will be going to farmers hurt by the tariffs? > > I’m against that. First, since trade wars are good and easy to win, the farmers shouldn’t need any help. Second, that’s $12 billion that could be used elsewhere – pay down debt, education, student loan relief, health care. Third, it’s such a transparent ploy to help his supporters. > > When is Trump going to understand that he represents the whole country, not just his voters? (Answer, of course, is never – he really only represents himself anyway) The farm aid is Trump’s first possible realization that his trade war is going to have consequences; his pulling back on trade tariffs with the EU is another. It’s a sign that he has badly, badly miscalculated the repercussions of his policies, and it’s an indication that he basically started a hostile action against a global power (well, actually multiple global powers) and didn’t understand or bother to consider the consequences. That’s what needs to be understood here. And considering that this is man who has the legal authority to use nuclear weapons, that’s a pretty goddamned scary thought. A man with so much power, and obviously so little ability to reckon with reality. That’s the takeaway from this, folks. I don’t think $12 billion dollars is going to help at all. In fact, the danger is that the aid allows him to continue with the misguided belief that he can ‘win’. I won’t be surprised if he simply ups the aid offer, rather than pulling back and face a humiliating retreat against the modern equivalent of the ‘yellow peril’. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/128 "2018-07-27T13:14:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This probably isn’t a good question to ask. It could easily be changed to “I work more than 80 hours a month, where is my free food money?” It is a question to ask, when it relates to farmers being rescued from losing their businesses. When you start a business, you take a risk. A risk that it doesn’t work out, and that you lose your investment and all your hard work. That sucks, it really does, but it is the cost of entrepreneurship. I have concerns over how this trade war and the effects on the economy will effect my business. I make plans and investments for the future, plans that can be thrown completely astray by actions that are out of my control. Why are farmers insured against losing their business, getting bailouts, when no other small business is? ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/129 "2018-07-27T13:30:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Why are farmers insured against losing their business, getting bailouts, when no other small business is? Yep. The hypocrisy and stupidity are mind-numbing. These are the people who argue for less regulation, fewer labor protections, and less government intervention, but when _they_ suffer the consequences of their own staggering stupidity suddenly its _different_ and they _deserve_ help when no one else does. ---
**Author:** ![Haldurson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/51bf81/32.png) [@Haldurson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haldurson)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/130 "2018-07-27T13:51:43Z")
Trump created the problem, it makes sense for him to try to fix it (not that costing the American people an additional 12 billion is a real solution, but at least by doing it, he’s admitting that he broke something). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/131 "2018-07-27T14:04:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Why are farmers insured against losing their business, getting bailouts, when no other small business is? Because farms aren’t really small businesses. This is a bailout for Big Ag. The independent farms are essentially share croppers, they own their own land but Big Ag owns the entire market and all of their crops. We pay to keep the market profitable for them, not the farmers themselves. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/132 "2018-07-27T14:25:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I have concerns over how this trade war and the effects on the economy will effect my business. Honest question. How do you expect the trade war to affect your small business? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/133 "2018-07-27T14:52:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Honest question. How do you expect the trade war to affect your small business? It’s called cost-push inflation, and Trump is artificially creating it. If you’re a small business running on tight profit margins, inflation - especially this kind and so suddenly - is going to be a concern. Christ, this is basic economics we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/134 "2018-07-27T14:57:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Because farms aren’t really small businesses. This is a bailout for Big Ag. The independent farms are essentially share croppers, they own their own land but Big Ag owns the entire market and all of their crops. We pay to keep the market profitable for them, not the farmers themselves. Interesting, because the USDA seems to reach a different conclusion than yours. [https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2017/march/large-family-farms-continue-to-dominate-us-agricultural-production/](https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2017/march/large-family-farms-continue-to-dominate-us-agricultural-production/) > [@](#): > > Family farms play a dominant role in U.S. agriculture. In 2015, these farms accounted for 99 percent of U.S. farms and 89 percent of production. On family farms, the principal operators and their relatives (by blood or marriage) own more than half of the business’s assets—in short, a family owns and operates the farm. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/135 "2018-07-27T15:04:22Z")
> [@Haldurson](#): > > Trump created the problem, it makes sense for him to try to fix it (not that costing the American people an additional 12 billion is a real solution, but at least by doing it, he’s admitting that he broke something). But I don’t think he’s admitting that; he still seems to be operating under the assumption that he can still make China get on bended knee and kiss his ring. He’s still at odds with our NAFTA partners, and even with his tentative agreement with the EU, he can always just back out of it - we’ve seen what Trump’s word is worth. Yes, there would be consequences, but that’s the point I’m making: he doesn’t reckon with consequences. He operates on impulses, which are based on very fuzzy perceptions. When Trump drops his trade war with China and actually begins negotiating a way out rather than shit tweeting, then we’ll know he gets it. Throwing more money at his problem is just an even clearer sign that he absolutely does not want to hear or believe that he’s wrong. Memo to Trump-loving farmers: you will have to accept the fact that you may have just voted yourself into insolvency. Ignorance has a price tag after all. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/136 "2018-07-27T15:17:22Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Honest question. How do you expect the trade war to affect your small business? If people have to spend more on goods and services that have had their price increase due to tariffs, then they have less money left over for other discretionary spending. I’ve already noticed that my clients have become more price sensitive over the last couple months. As it is, I am being affected right now. I am doing an expansion, and the cost of construction materials has gone up noticeably just since the beginning of the year. The cost of equipment has gone up by even more. A high velocity dryer that I bought last year for $349 now lists for $539. So, lower revenue, higher costs. As it stands, I can still make it work, though it’ll cost me tens of thousands of dollars. If it gets worse, I may not be able to make ends meet. Consumers see price increases due to such shenanigans eventually, but commercial businesses see it pretty much immediately. ---
**Author:** ![BJaxon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BJaxon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJaxon)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/137 "2018-07-27T15:26:01Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So the farmers of America are going to be a bunch of welfare bums - moochers and takers, huh? > > Oh, that’s right - they’re overwhelmingly white. > > Well now, that’s different. . I’m thinking they need to **drug test** \* these\* folks before handing out taxpayer money… the opiod crisis hit rural areas pretty hard. This is what the GOP has come to - they create a fiscal crisis then bail out those who suffered from the crisis they created and make it sound patriotic. trump and family are a criminal enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/138 "2018-07-27T15:30:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As it is, I am being affected right now. I am doing an expansion, and the cost of construction materials has gone up noticeably just since the beginning of the year. The cost of equipment has gone up by even more. A high velocity dryer that I bought last year for $349 now lists for $539. The tariffs were only announced recently. If costs have been going up since the beginning of the year, it’s not the tariffs. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/139 "2018-07-27T15:33:04Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Interesting, because the USDA seems to reach a different conclusion than yours. > > [https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2017/march/large-family-farms-continue-to-dominate-us-agricultural-production/](https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2017/march/large-family-farms-continue-to-dominate-us-agricultural-production/) That’s not in opposition to what I’m saying. The size of the farm doesn’t matter, big or small they exist to serve the huge agricultural companies that control the market. The bailout of the farmers just keeps prices low for those big companies. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/140 "2018-07-27T15:42:46Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The tariffs were only announced recently. If costs have been going up since the beginning of the year, it’s not the tariffs. That is not what I said. What I said was that costs have gone up since the beginning of the year. As in, at the beginning of the year, I looked at costs, to determine an estimate. And the costs at this time, now that I am ordering the materials, are significantly higher. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=8)