# $12 Billion in Aid Going to Farmers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515 "2018-07-24T17:48:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/141 "2018-07-27T16:20:30Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Farmers (work) quite a bit more than 80 hrs a month to produce something (most times). Sure. So do poor people. The question is whether they can provide the required paperwork to prove it to a bureaucrat. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/142 "2018-07-27T17:39:15Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, are you saying that the bailout is good or the tariffs are bad or what? . They are both bad, IMHO. I do not like the characterization of people who work long hours as welfare recipients. I think we can oppose both the tariffs and the bailout as bad ideas without attacking the farmers. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/143 "2018-07-27T17:40:58Z")
If they vote for a party that says giving out free money to make sure people vote for you is wrong, then they shouldn’t accept that free money when its coming to them. If they wanted to be consistent anyway, otherwise eyebrows will be raised, sorry to say. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/144 "2018-07-27T17:45:57Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > They are both bad, IMHO. I do not like the characterization of people who work long hours as welfare recipients. I think we can oppose both the tariffs and the bailout as bad ideas without attacking the farmers. I personally characterize people who receive welfare as welfare recipients. I’m funny like that. And I’m a simple man, so if the governement is giving you money for nothing, that’s a welfare payment. I don’t care if you’re broke and homeless, broke and have a home, broke and have a job, broke and have a job on a farm - or rich and have a job on a farm. If you’re suckling on the government teat, you’re a welfare recipient. Tell you what though - I won’t characterize being a welfare recipient as an attack. You don’t have to be a bad person to receive money from the government. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/145 "2018-07-27T19:35:06Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s called cost-push inflation, and Trump is artificially creating it. Inflation is only 2%. This is basic economics we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/146 "2018-07-27T20:53:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Inflation is only 2%. This is basic economics we’re talking about. Please cite that the inflation rate for July is 2%. You do realize that that is not a constant, correct? And that increases in prices drives inflation? Prices are currently increasing, much faster than 2%, on products that are affected by the tariffs. This is basic math that we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/147 "2018-07-27T21:04:31Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Who cares if Trump gets “brownie points”, should the farmers receive a wealth transfer or not? Yes, probably. Farmers have been screwed over by cheap-food policies for years. And your Mencken quote above was vile. What an evil, evil piece of work he was. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/148 "2018-07-27T21:15:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes we could go on all day listing those victimized by government intervention and those who benefit from that intervention. It is messy policy on top of messy policy. In almost every case, someone is getting slapped in the face with one hand and pat on the back with another. > > If we take the two policies in question, the tariffs and farm subsidies, the majority of people benefit from neither, so I think we can just say no to both. Decisions should be made on the margin to decrease government intervention at every increment. Wow. Maybe I should just repeatedly state my own philosophical views over and over again without justification. I wonder if I’d convince anyone. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/149 "2018-07-27T21:56:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Please cite that the inflation rate for July is 2%. > > You do realize that that is not a constant, correct? And that increases in prices drives inflation? > > Prices are currently increasing, much faster than 2%, on products that are affected by the tariffs. > > This is basic math that we’re talking about. You do realize that July isn’t over yet, right? How can somebody cite something that hasn’t happened yet? 😕 In any case, June was less than 3%. Your dryer going up by more than 54% is simply unbelievable. Basic math. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/150 "2018-07-27T22:22:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You do realize that July isn’t over yet, right? How can somebody cite something that hasn’t happened yet? 😕 Exactly, and yet, you seem to think that you know what it is. Do you have a cite for August 2018? That would be really useful. If not, then don’t declare what inflation is, because you don’t know what it is. > [@](#): > > In any case, June was less than 3%. And less than 3%[(2.9%)](https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/)is higher than 2%. > [@](#): > > Your dryer going up by more than 54% is simply unbelievable. I thought so too, but there it was, $539. I had to go back and check my invoices from when I bought one in September of last year to believe it myself. (And now I need to buy about 10 of them to fully deck out my new digs.) But, given that there are parts and materials that come from or compete with materials sourced from overseas, and we are starting a trade war, they jacked up their prices. That’s inflation, which, contrary to your stated belief, is not fixed at 2%. > [@](#): > > Basic math. Basic reality. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/151 "2018-07-28T01:02:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Inflation is only 2%. This is basic economics we’re talking about. You asked why an ordinary business person would be worried about tariffs. Considering that the trade war has just begun, we’re obviously not worried about the present, but the future. Yes, inflation has been relatively stable until now. But a trade war that forces consumers to pay more for products, whether they pay a tax on items coming in or just pay more for items made domestically, will increase prices in the future the longer that both sides dig in. Moreover, there other tangential effects that most people don’t anticipate, like interruptions to the supply chain, which results in fewer widgets being made. Fewer widgets when demand is constant creates greater scarcity, which in turns results in inflation. And what happens if a country being targeted in a trade war decides that it wants to play a different game altogether: a currency war? ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/152 "2018-07-28T02:02:51Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Welcome to the last 35 years of Republican politics. As if 0bama didn’t sign a spending package that was more than all other presidents before him combined. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > So much for the free market. [https://freedomoutpost.com/farmers-to-trump-we-dont-want-handouts-we-want-a-quick-return-to-free-trade/](https://freedomoutpost.com/farmers-to-trump-we-dont-want-handouts-we-want-a-quick-return-to-free-trade/) What free market? We don’t have one, and we haven’t had one in my lifetime. > [@TriPolar](#): > > They get lost at the lab looking for the outhouse. And you think Trump supporters are bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/153 "2018-07-28T02:08:13Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > And you think Trump supporters are bigoted. Get a sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/154 "2018-07-28T03:46:15Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > As if 0bama didn’t sign a spending package that was more than all other presidents before him combined. 1. Cite? 2. Who said anything about spending? My comment was about the debt and deficit; related, but not the same thing. 3. The deficit was high during Obama’s first years in office (a poor economy and stimulus spending will do that), decreased, and then climbed slightly in his last year. Overall, it did come down. 4. Who said anything about Obama? I said the debt and deficit have gone up under Republicans for decades. They have. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/155 "2018-07-28T04:21:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s inflation, which, contrary to your stated belief, is not fixed at 2%. Where did I say that inflation was “fixed” at 2%? Cite, or retract please. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/156 "2018-07-28T04:22:58Z")
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/157 "2018-07-28T05:43:20Z")
**D’Anconia** , do you think that all prices rise in lockstep? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/158 "2018-07-28T11:40:02Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > As if 0bama didn’t sign a spending package that was more than all other presidents before him combined. (I’ll set aside the “all other … combined” which seems to use arithmetic procedures—or a dialect of English— that I’m not familiar with.) The right-wing meme that it is D’s and not R’s who pump up the national debt is one I’m grateful for: It immediately teaches us which Dopers are not completely competent to understand or Google simple facts. Thank you, **CelticKnot**. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/159 "2018-07-28T11:55:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > **Inflation is only 2%**. This is basic economics we’re talking about. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Where did I say that inflation was “fixed” at 2%? > > Cite, or retract please. No qualifiers such as “currently at” or “at this point”. You made a statement of fact. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515/160 "2018-07-28T14:35:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Where did I say that inflation was “fixed” at 2%? > > Cite, or retract please. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Inflation is only 2%. This is basic economics we’re talking about. You said this as if it was a current figure (it is not), and as though it was a figure that would be useful to predict future events (it most certainly is not.) You said this in response to why a business owner would be worried about current and future effects of tariffs, you said this in response to a poster pointing out that inflation may increase due to tariffs. The only conclusion to be made as to why you would say such a thing is that you think that inflation is always 2%, or that your comment had absolutely no relevance to the post it was responding to. So, either explain how your incorrect comment that inflation is only 2% has any relevancy to concerns over increasing inflation, or retract your comment as utterly useless for consideration in this debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-billion-in-aid-going-to-farmers/818515.md?page=9)