# 12 Monkeys (1995) Confusion **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090 "2017-08-08T13:58:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/1 "2017-08-08T13:58:20Z")
I just watched this movie again and really paid attention, but I am woefully confused. 😕 **Potential Spoilers:** * * * A few+ questions: Why did James Cole (Bruce Willis) eat the spider in the mental hospital? Was that his way of collecting a clue/specimen? Since he went through time, is he stuck in an eternal loop with time travel since he didn’t significantly change the progress? Is he forever stuck in a loop of watching himself as an child die as an adult? What is the significance of Dr. Peters sitting on the plane next to that ‘insurance’ agent lady on the plane (whom later is one of the “Scientists”)? Should I watch the TV Series from a couple years ago? Is it any good? Thanks… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/2 "2017-08-08T14:09:49Z")
Eating the spider was certainly an attempt at collecting a specimen. It’s unclear whether it worked, but the scientist handler nonetheless applauds the creative attempt at problem-solving. Cole himself doesn’t loop: He ages, and his memories progress linearly, and so on. There is a loop which contains him, but that’s not the same thing. From his point of view, he only lives through the loop once. And Cole was just one of many plans the future people had in motion. His plan didn’t work, and so they also tried a backup (insurance) plan. That probably didn’t work, either, but they’re still going to try it. And I never saw the TV series. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/3 "2017-08-08T15:04:49Z")
The TV series is quite good, next season is the last one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/4 "2017-08-08T15:47:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Cole was just one of many plans the future people had in motion. His plan didn’t work, and so they also tried a backup (insurance) plan. That probably didn’t work, either, but they’re still going to try it. I disagree. I mean, yes, granted, Cole’s _‘shoot the guy’_ plan didn’t work; but that wasn’t what the future people sent him back for. > [@Bruce Willis](#): > > This already happened. I can’t save you; nobody can. I am simply trying to gather information to help the people in the present trace the path of the virus … That’s my mission. I just have to locate them, because they have the virus in its pure form, before it mutates. When I locate them, they’ll send a scientist back here; that scientist will study the virus, and then, when he goes back to the present, he and the rest of the scientists will make a cure. I mean, yeah, he’s wrong about that scientist being a _guy,_ but that’s irrelevant. What’s relevant is, he knows his mission and carries it out – and then a scientist is sent back exactly as he expected, to do exactly what he’d said. That’s _not,_ as far as I can tell, a backup plan in the wake of Cole flubbing the mission he got tasked with; it’s Part Two of the plan that Cole in fact succeeded at Part One of. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/5 "2017-08-08T15:53:00Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > What is the significance of Dr. Peters sitting on the plane next to that ‘insurance’ agent lady on the plane (whom later is one of the “Scientists”)? There are two diametrically opposed interpretations. 1. The scientist is there as insurance to gather the virus if Cole fails. 2. The scientist is there to ensure that Cole does fail. I go with #2. To pick #1, you’d have to assume the scientists are good guys, but nothing about their behavior indicates this. They are cruel and deliberately misled Cole about the target of his mission (it’s impossible to take anything they tell him at face value). Further, the virus is what put them into power, so why would they want to stop it? Note that when she’s shown on the plane, she’s drinking champagne – a something you usually drink when celebrating. Clearly, she’s celebrating Cole’s failure. Some people prefer the happy ending, but nothing in the film indicates that’s what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/6 "2017-08-08T16:04:15Z")
I always gathered the female scientist was there to collect the early version of the virus, once Cole had narrowed down the target by figuring out the “Army of the 12 Monkeys” was a red herring. The future scientists had no interest in trying to prevent the catastrophe; they just wanted to gather information and samples to address the problem in their time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/7 "2017-08-08T16:15:13Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > There are two diametrically opposed interpretations. > > 1. The scientist is there as insurance to gather the virus if Cole fails. > 2. The scientist is there to ensure that Cole does fail. > > I go with #2. To pick #1, you’d have to assume the scientists are good guys, but nothing about their behavior indicates this. They are cruel and deliberately misled Cole about the target of his mission (it’s impossible to take anything they tell him at face value). Further, the virus is what put them into power, so why would they want to stop it? Note that when she’s shown on the plane, she’s drinking champagne – a something you usually drink when celebrating. Clearly, she’s celebrating Cole’s failure. > > Some people prefer the happy ending, but nothing in the film indicates that’s what happens. I’m not sure I understand. What do you think they _want?_ On the _your-mission-is-to-locate-the-virus-in-its-pure-form-so-we-can-cure-it_ read of it, everything falls into place: why they told him that when they sent him back, and why they sent him back, and why she was on the plane next to the nut. If they just wanted to keep Cole from succeeding, why send him and make him fail? Why not just _not send him?_ And if, as per all indications, the past can’t be changed, then there’s no need to ensure that Cole fails; but if the past _can_ be changed, then why ensure Cole’s failure – by doing what? – and then stick around after that, boarding the flight and pointedly sitting next to that nut for some reason? I can pretty readily field every question if the answer is “what he said in the movie”. Now, maybe it’s a failure of imagination on my part – but I’d spread my hands and shrug if asked why they fired up a working time machine to do a whole bunch of stuff they didn’t seem to need to bother with in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/8 "2017-08-08T16:25:38Z")
One thing to remember is that the scientists don’t know the whole story either. Cole helped find vital information for them to pinpoint David Morse’s’ location at the end of the film. But they may have felt that they might be able to change history and sent Cole on a hail Mary play to kill Morse. Of course he fails, preventing the paradox of a no plague scenario and letting the lady scientist get her sample. And sure she’s celebrating. She’s found the guy and more importantly, the virus that she wants. She even has her little joke about being in insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/9 "2017-08-08T18:16:47Z")
Actually, I should tweak what I said before: They have not just multiple layers of plans, but multiple types. They knew that they couldn’t change history, and that the best they could hope for was to get the unmutated virus and try to develop a cure for it, and so they’re doing that… but what if they’re wrong, and they _can_ change history? With the fate of humanity on the line, it’s worth a try, and so they attempt that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/10 "2017-08-08T18:35:35Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I go with #2. To pick #1, you’d have to assume the scientists are good guys, but nothing about their behavior indicates this. They are cruel and deliberately misled Cole about the target of his mission (it’s impossible to take anything they tell him at face value). Further, the virus is what put them into power, so why would they want to stop it? They said needed a sample of the virus before it mutated to develop a cure in their own time, and that fits with their behavior and wanting to be in power. When they bring the pure sample of virus forward in time, they can create a cure, and retake the surface world with themselves not only in charge but remembered as the saviors who cured the plague. It makes perfect sense to me, and doesn’t require thinking that they’re a bunch of pleasant altruists. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/11 "2017-08-08T19:32:15Z")
I’m not sure they’d ever intend to change the past, as that would erase themselves from existence. Even if you’re looking at a multiverse where they wouldn’t erase their own existence, why would changing another instance’s past-future bring any benefit to them? They only trying to make things better for themselves, and fixing another timeline or wiping themselves out doesn’t accomplish that. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/12 "2017-08-08T20:10:37Z")
I have a minority opinion about the end but I believed then when it first came out and believe now still the “twist” about the line about Insurance was to show the “scientists” weren’t scientists at all. They were full of shit and everything they were doing was about not undoing the power they had over what was left of society. The series is very different from the movies and very good. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/13 "2017-08-08T20:17:46Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’m not sure they’d ever intend to change the past, as that would erase themselves from existence. Assuming most or all of the leaders are as old as Bruce Willis, no it doesn’t. And frankly, wrt RealityChuck’s musings and whether the past could be changed: the choice of being in charge of a post apocalypse death planet and flipping back to being a dentist or whatever in 90’s America? I don’t think the obvious answer is dead planet leadership. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/14 "2017-08-08T21:06:23Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I have a minority opinion about the end but I believed then when it first came out and believe now still the “twist” about the line about Insurance was to show the “scientists” weren’t scientists at all. They were full of shit and everything they were doing was about not undoing the power they had over what was left of society. Again, though: why _bother?_ Why put him through those paces and manipulate things in a scheme that’s “about not undoing the power the had over what was left” if you can just, y’know – _not_ send Cole to a time and place where he can loudly pass along warnings and maybe try to shoot key people before the cataclysm? If your goal is maintaining that nightmarish status quo, why put in so much work? If he can’t change the past, then you’re putting in way too much effort foiling him; but if he _can_ change the past, then you’re taking a huge risk – _and for what?_ If they genuinely want that sample, then everything they do makes sense. If they just want to not undo stuff, then aren’t they already done? ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/15 "2017-08-08T21:09:56Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m not sure I understand. What do you think they _want?_ > > On the _your-mission-is-to-locate-the-virus-in-its-pure-form-so-we-can-cure-it_ read of it, everything falls into place: why they told him that when they sent him back, and why they sent him back, and why she was on the plane next to the nut. > > If they just wanted to keep Cole from succeeding, why send him and make him fail? Why not just _not send him?_ And if, as per all indications, the past can’t be changed, then there’s no need to ensure that Cole fails; but if the past _can_ be changed, then why ensure Cole’s failure – by doing what? – and then stick around after that, boarding the flight and pointedly sitting next to that nut for some reason? > > I can pretty readily field every question if the answer is “what he said in the movie”. Now, maybe it’s a failure of imagination on my part – but I’d spread my hands and shrug if asked why they fired up a working time machine to do a whole bunch of stuff they didn’t seem to need to bother with in the first place. This. I’ve never understood why this movie is considered ambiguous in the way people say. The scientists know they can’t change the past, and the goal is to get a sample. I believe their intentions are sincere, even if they’re personally unlikable. They’re the future equivalent of research scientists who have questionable ethics when it comes to forced experimentation on marginalized groups. Although they’re a little more sympathetic given their dire predicament. They’re not evil in a cartoon “try to take over the world” sense. Of course it’s probably not possible to write a time travel movie without holes. Whether the insurance lady was there to follow up on Cole’s success or as backup in case of failure is an interesting question. The past has already happened, so they must have _always_ known about Cole’s airport shooting and who and where the terrorist was, even while they were going through the motions of sending Cole back so he could figure this out. That assumes they figured it out based on the historical records of the events. In that case the insurance line doesn’t make much sense. I can’t recall if instead they figured it out by Cole coming back to the future and telling them who it was. That would make a little more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/16 "2017-08-08T23:27:16Z")
IIRC, they got most of their information from an ancient answering machine that they had Cole call with mission updates. So they already had the info when they sent him back, but they still had to send him back to get it. And it might not be possible to make a movie completely without holes, but this one did a very good job of it. I really need to re-watch it one of these days. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/17 "2017-08-08T23:45:31Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Again, though: why _bother?_ Why put him through those paces and manipulate things in a scheme that’s “about not undoing the power the had over what was left” if you can just, y’know – _not_ send Cole to a time and place where he can loudly pass along warnings and maybe try to shoot key people before the cataclysm? > > If your goal is maintaining that nightmarish status quo, why put in so much work? If he can’t change the past, then you’re putting in way too much effort foiling him; but if he _can_ change the past, then you’re taking a huge risk – _and for what?_ > > If they genuinely want that sample, then everything they do makes sense. If they just want to not undo stuff, then aren’t they already done? They could really have wanted him to go back in time to get the sample. Hell maybe they even would like a cure but my point is they aren’t really scientists. At least that woman wasn’t. When she says she’s in insurance I take that at face value to be a job as far from scientist as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/18 "2017-08-08T23:53:45Z")
Well dammit, it seems I have to watch this movie again. I barely remember any of the crap yinz guys are on about. I remember I liked it, so I guess it’s not a bad thing to revisit. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/19 "2017-08-09T00:13:29Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > They could really have wanted him to go back in time to get the sample. Hell maybe they even would like a cure but my point is they aren’t really scientists. At least that woman wasn’t. When she says she’s in insurance I take that at face value to be a job as far from scientist as you can get. Thats what I figured, I took it as face value as maybe she is actually an insurance agent at that time before the viral apocalypse, and it was just convenience/serendipity that she was on the plane next to Dr. Peters. I was thinking this way because there is a lot of convenient timing and serendipitous moments in that movie. I do like the theory that she is a ‘backup’ plan though in case Cole fails and she is close enough to gather a sample of the virus. That would make sense although the movie does nothing to explicitly imply it. Thanks for the replies, if anyone has any other theories please share them. I really did like this movie (I didn’t the first time I saw it years ago, because I didn’t know what was going on, being like 13 or something) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/20 "2017-08-09T00:23:57Z")
True, it’s not the easiest movie to follow. I can see how being 13 and easily-distracted would detract from it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090.md?page=2)