# 12 Monkeys (1995) Confusion **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090 "2017-08-08T13:58:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/41 "2017-08-14T22:21:58Z")
Wasn’t there one particular event that unfolded in current events that Cole knew how it would play out ahead of time in a completely unexpected manner that made it inconceivable that he wasn’t from the future? He also demonstrated knowledge of the contents of the answering machine message before he was told them. At least, that’s what I remember. ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/42 "2017-08-14T23:42:20Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > Wasn’t there one particular event that unfolded in current events that Cole knew how it would play out ahead of time in a completely unexpected manner that made it inconceivable that he wasn’t from the future? He also demonstrated knowledge of the contents of the answering machine message before he was told them. > > At least, that’s what I remember. You’re probably remembering that Cole remembered that a boy was supposed to be trapped in a well, but was actually hiding nearby. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/43 "2017-08-20T17:13:41Z")
There are too many scenes where Cole isn’t present to support the idea that most of the movie was his delusion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/44 "2017-08-20T17:27:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > There are too many scenes where Cole isn’t present to support the idea that most of the movie was his delusion. “Brunette, athletic; sleazy and demure, just as you specified? Is that coincidence?” “Ah, she’s real! I dreamt about her before I ever went to Rekall!” “Mr. Quaid . . . can you _hear_ yourself? She’s real _because_ you dreamed her?” ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/45 "2017-08-20T18:49:07Z")
You know what a real dark take on the ending is (which isn’t implied, but why not?): What if the Scientists are just as misanthropic as the crazy scientist, and when the lady at the end says she’s in “insurance”, she’s insuring that she’s come back to bring the unmutated virus to the future not to save what remains of humanity…But to finish the job and wipe what’s left of the human race out. “Insuring” the success of the crazy scientist’s goal. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/46 "2017-08-20T19:06:47Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > You know what a real dark take on the ending is (which isn’t implied, but why not?): > > What if the Scientists are just as misanthropic as the crazy scientist, and when the lady at the end says she’s in “insurance”, she’s insuring that she’s come back to bring the unmutated virus to the future not to save what remains of humanity…But to finish the job and wipe what’s left of the human race out. “Insuring” the success of the crazy scientist’s goal. Why would they do that, when the Scientists are already in control of the remnants of humanity? They could simply poison everyone rather than use a disease. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/47 "2017-08-20T23:21:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m opposed to any “it was all in his head” explanation, not because of the evidence, but because it’s a cop-out. Any movie at all can be explained as the delusions or hallucinations of a madman. And then of course there’s the matter that _of course_ none of it is real, because it’s all a movie. If we’re willing to discuss the fictitious world of a movie anyway, why not also discuss the fictitious world of the delusions of a fictitious madman? And if we’re discussing that world, why bother to posit the madman at all? No, I’m not saying everything is happening in Cole’s mind. Most of the events of the movie are real and Cole is really experiencing them. The only part that a delusion is the stuff from the future. We believe Cole is sane because we’re watching a movie. We see all the scenes in the future so we accept that it’s just as real as the scenes we see in the movie’s present. But go watch _Brazil_ or _The Adventures of Baron Munchausen_ or _The Fisher King_: in all of those movies the main character has delusions and we see those delusions on screen. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/48 "2017-08-20T23:25:58Z")
> [@DrForrester](#): > > The biggest argument against this is the few minutes at the end of the film following Cole’s death. Whether he was lucid or delusional… it no longer matters. He’s dead. The virus guy continues being the virus guy. He’s got no innocent explanation. No, that part was real. Dr Peters really did release the virus and probably did kill off the world. Doesn’t that prove that Cole had knowledge from the future? Not necessarily. Cole had spent the entire movie talking about how somebody was going to release a virus and destroy the world. And one character said that he was inspired to act by what Cole said. Now granted, the character who said this was Jeffrey Goines not Dr Peters. But it puts the possibility into the movie that Peters was also inspired by what Cole said. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/49 "2017-08-21T02:23:33Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > “Brunette, athletic; sleazy and demure, just as you specified? Is that coincidence?” > “Ah, she’s real! I dreamt about her before I ever went to Rekall!” > “Mr. Quaid . . . can you _hear_ yourself? She’s real _because_ you dreamed her?” I’m willing to buy that _Total Recall_ is a “it’s all in his head!” movie with a few minor flaws, i.e. the scenes that don’t feature the main character, and even then he’s being fed a “story” at Rekall about a super-spy that overthrows the corrupt Martian government and saves the mutants, etc. so scenes in support of how corrupt the governor is and how desperate the mutants’ situation becomes are in support of that narrative. This doesn’t seem to be the case when Frank Gorshin is speculating on how Cole managed to overcome sedation, escape four-point restraints, climb up to a small vent in the ceiling, open it, climb through it, close it behind him etc. Is Cole’s visit to that particular hospital in 1990 entirely a delusion, or was he there and managed to escape somehow, then imagined he did so via time travel? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/50 "2017-08-21T02:27:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > This doesn’t seem to be the case when Frank Gorshin is speculating on how Cole managed to overcome sedation, escape four-point restraints, climb up to a small vent in the ceiling, open it, climb through it, close it behind him etc. Is Cole’s visit to that particular hospital in 1990 entirely a delusion, or was he there and managed to escape somehow, then imagined he did so via time travel? I agree, escaping from the mental hospital would have been extremely difficult. But is time travel really the most plausible explanation, even within the context of a movie? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/51 "2017-08-21T02:41:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m willing to buy that _Total Recall_ is a “it’s all in his head!” movie with a few minor flaws, i.e. the scenes that don’t feature the main character, and even then he’s being fed a “story” at Rekall about a super-spy that overthrows the corrupt Martian government and saves the mutants, etc. so scenes in support of how corrupt the governor is and how desperate the mutants’ situation becomes are in support of that narrative. > > This doesn’t seem to be the case when Frank Gorshin is speculating on how Cole managed to overcome sedation, escape four-point restraints, climb up to a small vent in the ceiling, open it, climb through it, close it behind him etc. Is Cole’s visit to that particular hospital in 1990 entirely a delusion, or was he there and managed to escape somehow, then imagined he did so via time travel? Heh. No, I agree with you; I just found the reasoning inherently funny: it’s not a delusion, because he’s not in some scenes? So we grant, for the sake of argument, that the scenes he’s _in_ could result from a crazy mind; but we know he’s not crazy, because, well, hallucinating scenes he _isn’t_ in, that’d be crazy? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090/52 "2017-08-21T03:30:14Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Heh. No, I agree with you; I just found the reasoning inherently funny: it’s not a delusion, because he’s not in some scenes? So we grant, for the sake of argument, that the scenes he’s _in_ could result from a crazy mind; but we know he’s not crazy, because, well, hallucinating scenes he _isn’t_ in, that’d be crazy? > > 😉 I’m not eager to embrace the apparent contradiction, because the scenes missing the main character typically contribute to the main plot in a coherent and consistent fashion, i.e. insane main character _A_ doesn’t imagine that random imaginary supporting character _B_ turns into a cross-dressing werewolf when _B_ is out of _A_’s sight; rather, _A_ imagines _B_ doing something perfectly in keeping with what _B_ would do if _B_ was a real person - the main character is allegedly deluded enough to imagine large and elaborate fantasies that show a degree of consistency that sometimes eludes even professional screenwriters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-monkeys-1995-confusion/793090.md?page=2)