# 12 year old killed by gator, humans respond **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138 "2003-06-20T12:34:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/101 "2003-06-20T19:35:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triss \* > \*\*Perhaps you didn’t mean to, but you are anthropomorphizing the animals with this statement. Ascribing human motives or emotions or characteristics to animals (or anything else) is a common error and stems from a lack of understanding of the nature of animals. > \*\* All right, **Triss.** I’m glad you are taking it upon yourself to educate **DF** about such things. But try not to use all them big fancy words, and take it easy on the poor boy. \ ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/102 "2003-06-20T19:44:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Triss \* > You don’t equate something trying to kill you with being bad? Why? Because they don’t mean anything against you personally? This makes you smarter than me, how? Even the animals instinctively equate something trying to kill them with being bad, you moron. Or do they defend themselves or their offspring to the death because they’re somehow more honourable than us?_\* It is bad for **me** (very, very bad). It does not make a wild animal bad (just dangerous). Above all it does not deserve to suffer revenge for attacking you. > [@](#): > > The very “live and let live” attitude that some people are proclaiming that they espouse in this thread would be equally well served by applying to humans, don’t you think? Especially pre-adolescent humans who, as we all know, ain’t always the sharpest pencils in the box. I’m sick of this strawman and I’m done wasting my time with you. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/103 "2003-06-20T19:47:19Z")
I’m sad the alligators are dead. I’m sad for the boy’s family over the loss of their son. I’m sad the stupid boy is dead. But let’s be honest here – the boy **was** stupid. He might not have been an adult, but he did have enough understanding of the world to realize that swimming in an area with large alligators is _very dangerous._ He _deliberately_ and _willfully_ went swimming, even after his friends tried to stop him, and paid the price for his stupidity. The alligators are not to blame here; the boy is. And while I’m sad he’s dead, I’m also pissed off that he _did_ this stupid stunt and got himself killed in the process. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/104 "2003-06-20T19:57:46Z")
And because he got himself killed, 10 other alligators (I heard it on the radio this afternoon) got killed too. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/105 "2003-06-20T20:07:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Why did anything have to be “done?” The kid was already dead. There was nobody else in the water. There was no reason they had to do _anything_. \*\* Really? This happened in a populated, heavily traveled area; suppose it had happened in your backyard. Would you say, “Well, I guess we better be careful” and go about your business? I sure as hell wouldn’t; I’d go get that gator. (OK, I’d have a professional go get the gator.) Not in “revenge,” not to “teach the gator a lesson,” but because obviously that gator is more than willing to kill a human, and this is human turf. The big problem here isn’t that these gators were killed; it’s that they weren’t killed before this happened. From the article linked in the OP (Remember the OP? This is a thread about the OP…): > [@](#): > > For the past several days, the large alligator had been testing how close it could get to the Palm Gardens Marina, where a dock and a restaurant on the Dead River attract steady traffic through the adjoining mobile home park. > > On Sunday, the alligator, anywhere from 8-feet to 11-feet long, swam within 30 feet of the dock. On Wednesday, it got right up against the marina’s seawall. The gator, and all big gators that were crowding the human areas, should have been taken out before. > [@](#): > > Buse said he had filed a nuisance alligator complaint Wednesday afternoon with the Conservation Commission, the only agency allowed to remove alligators deemed a threat to people. I’m not espousing the “master race” nonsense. Someone who goes swimming with gators is as dumb as the guy who climbed into Shamu’s tank at Sea World a while back and got killed. But the terrible death and this long-ass thread could have been avoided if the gators had been either removed (not likely; gators are difficult to capture live and neither rare enough nor cute enough to merit a PETA showdown) or killed when they started encroaching on human areas. I’m not blaming anyone but the kid here, but it’s one of society’s functions to do what we can to keep our children’s stupidity–because kids are _stupid_–from killing them. We try, but sometimes it’s not enough. And when something like this happens, we try harder, and one of the things we do is try to keep it from happening again, by killing the dangerous animals _and_ by teaching our kids as sternly as possible not to fuck around with gators (I’m pretty sure my own gatorphobia stems from my parents warning me emphatically about gators every single time I left the house). It’s locking the barn door after the horse is gone, but at least we can save the other horses. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/106 "2003-06-20T20:16:34Z")
Humans, especially fishermen (“dock and restaurant” + child: three strikes), generate garbage that attracts gators. It’s as bad as feeding them intentionally. It’s ship the huge ornery gator to the deep Everglades (cost prohibitive) or kill it and make wallets. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/107 "2003-06-20T20:19:45Z")
Yeah, but so what? 10 Alligators were harvested. No big whoop. If they went on an alligator-exterminating frenzy that would be bad. But the state of Florida apparently kills thousands of problem alligators every year. So this year they kill 1010 instead of 1000. If killing the gators was going to harm the species or harm the ecology then I’d be against it. But this is just thinning the herd. Next year new gators are going to grow up and move into the pond. And new 12 year old boys will go swimming there. And the beautiful cycle will continue. Exactly what are we supposed to be outraged about? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/108 "2003-06-20T20:27:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jackelope \* > \*\* > From the article linked in the OP (Remember the OP? This is a thread about the OP…): \*\* Well, the first thing they could have done was give the gator a medal for being so brave and honest for telling the truth about eating the kid, which we didn’t expect, or they could have bawled the alligator out and told him never to be seen eating children again, which we kind of expected, but the THIRD THING was that that they rounded him up and killed him. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/109 "2003-06-20T20:47:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triss \* > **Perhaps you didn’t mean to, but you are anthropomorphizing the animals with this statement. Ascribing human motives or emotions or characteristics to animals (or anything else) is a common error and stems from a lack of understanding of the nature of animals.** Where was I anthropomorphizing? Animals are territorial, are they not? If one invades their territory, they will typically become aggressive. I don’t believe I’ve said otherwise (and if you are trying to argue against my use of the word “object”, well, that’s just silly). > [@](#): > > **It appears to me that the existing creatures in this case were not “objecting” to anything.** I was making a general statement. Humans move in without regard to what may already be living there, then act surprised when the current inhabitants defend their territory, or view humans as a potential new food source. This, and other, gator attacks would not even be an issue if the humans involved used their evolutionarily-derived reasoning ability to avoid it in the first place. Co-habitation does not require killing everything that looks dangerous. > [@](#): > > \*\*Quite the opposite, they were merely doing what they are designed to do: Taking prey. \*\* Alligators were not “designed” to do anything, much less “take prey”. They are animals adapted to an ambush-predator lifestyle. That does not mean their sole purpose is to eat. > [@](#): > > \*\*Taking easy, small-energy-expense prey. Which they will certainly do again, again and again if they can. Is this wrong of them? Of course not. Neither is it wrong for us to do what _we_ do, which is eliminate a perceived threat to ourselves. \*\* Which, again, is a threat we brought on ourselves. Alligators live there? You’ve got a few options: 1) don’t go there; 2) go there and kill them all off in “self-defense” (or, I suppose, just kill _some_ of them because they _look_ threatening); 3) go there, learn about them, and adapt your own living environment to co-exist with them. Teach children that gators can be violent if threatened, or if you look like prey. Don’t go out of your way to attract them. And so on. You appear to be of the mindset that would opt for #2. Sorry, but practically inviting an attack does not constitute a valid threat. My point is, gators are what they are. _We_ are the ones with the big brains here, so _we_ are the ones who ought to be able to come up with a solution that goes beyond, “Must…kill! Must…protect!” > [@](#): > > **The very “live and let live” attitude that some people are proclaiming that they espouse in this thread would be equally well served by applying to humans, don’t you think?** Indeed it would. Pity so few have actually tried it. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/110 "2003-06-20T20:48:47Z")
😃 I was hoping folks would catch that and not think I was just being snarky. ---
**Author:** ![Phelan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Phelan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phelan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/111 "2003-06-20T20:56:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by malaka \* > \*\*The stupid parents will probably sue because their stupid kid was killed by a stupid gator. \*\* Now they’re stupid for something they haven’t even done yet? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by malaka \* > **Dinsdale** had a good post in regards to how he would feel if one of his kids died in a similar fashion… \*\* The only way **Dinsdale** would know “how he would feel”, is if he went through it himself; and I wouldn’t wish that on anybody. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by malaka \* > And I liked **badmana** s quote about kids on the freeway. \*\* It does make some sence I guess, but being pissed off at the kid and parents for ruining your day is pretty selfish. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/112 "2003-06-20T21:00:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\*The Florida law cited earlier states that aggressive animals are to be killed. Not “Let’s kill a whole bunch of them on the chance that one is the aggressive one”. I don’t hear of a mass roundup and slaughter of Rottweilers if one should happen to attack a child… \*\* Of course, there’s a major difference or two between the situations - in this case they had no way of ascertaining which gator attacked, just that it was one ‘about yea big’. Damn things won’t wear tags ya know. and w/the Rotts, generally speaking, yes they do know which one (or they do when they kill off the dog - except in that CA case, where the two lawyers had some breed of dog, and they attacked a neighbor, killing her - both dogs were ultimately destroyed, though only one killed). RE; the definative ‘taste of blood’ thing - From posts in this thread, seems that FL allows for the killing of gators over a certain size, regardless of history of killing, so I don’t think that’s relevant. RE: the OP -sad that the kid died, yes, it’s his fault, stupidity isn’t always fatal but it is sometimes. Re: killing of the gators, some one posted data re: how many gators have been authorized to be killed in FL, since they were over a certain size and near humans, and it was quite a number of them. I guess I’m not going to get too excited that the number increased by 10. I reserve the right to be outraged if and when the situation is different than is presented. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/113 "2003-06-20T21:12:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*Yeah, but so what? 10 Alligators were harvested. No big whoop. If they went on an alligator-exterminating frenzy that would be bad. But the state of Florida apparently kills thousands of problem alligators every year. So this year they kill 1010 instead of 1000. > > If killing the gators was going to harm the species or harm the ecology then I’d be against it. But this is just thinning the herd. Next year new gators are going to grow up and move into the pond. And new 12 year old boys will go swimming there. And the beautiful cycle will continue. Exactly what are we supposed to be outraged about? \*\* Was this directed to me? Since your post is under my post, I already said I was for killing all the big gators around there. The [population](http://agrigator.ifas.ufl.edu/gators/#history) of gators is [HUGE](http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/27/critters.gator.catcher/). The early 1970s are a [distant memory.](http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/noframe/d052.htm) Oh, and I like wallets. I might get gator skin next time. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/114 "2003-06-20T21:12:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phelan \* > \*\*The only way **Dinsdale** would know “how he would feel”, is if he went through it himself; and I wouldn’t wish that on anybody. > \*\* If you are going to emphasize my username in your post, you might wish to note that I indicated: \*I certainly cannot predict how I would respond to one of them dying young, especially violently. But I can imagine that … I truly believe that … I hope I would not …\* Sorry if that’s not enough qualifiers for you dumb-Phuck, especially given the excessive length of my post. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/115 "2003-06-20T21:13:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally from the St. Pete Times_ > One reason alligator attacks have become more common is that Florida’s growing human population is encroaching more on what used to be alligators’ home turf. Plus, those who move to the area from alligator-free territory may not know how to avoid provoking alligators. > > Last year, the state recorded 14,738 complaints about alligators. > > Still, experts say, taking simple precautions will go a long way toward protecting against attacks. Experts say people should avoid swimming and water-skiing at dawn, dusk and at night, when alligators are more active. Children and pets should not be allowed near shores unsupervised. > > Above all, don’t feed the alligators. It’s against state law. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/116 "2003-06-20T21:23:13Z")
Holy cow, **Beagle** ; [this photo](http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/imagefiles/d052w01.htm), from one of your links, is amazing. Reminds me of the gator-infested canals on my friend’s grandfather’s ranch outside of Tampa (in which we did not go swimming). ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/117 "2003-06-20T21:25:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jackelope \* > \*\*Holy cow, **Beagle** ; [this photo](http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/imagefiles/d052w01.htm), from one of your links, is amazing. Reminds me of the gator-infested canals on my friend’s grandfather’s ranch outside of Tampa (in which we did not go swimming). \*\* OOHHHHH, all those shiny little eyes!! Great picture… ---
**Author:** ![Phelan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Phelan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phelan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/118 "2003-06-20T21:33:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > \*\*If you are going to emphasize my username in your post, you might wish to note that I indicated: \*\* That wasn’t what I intended to do. I just bold out of respect I guess. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \*\*\* > \*I certainly cannot predict how I would respond to one of them dying young, especially violently. But I can imagine that … > > I truly believe that … > > I hope I would not …\* > > Sorry if that’s not enough qualifiers for you dumb-Phuck, especially given the excessive length of my post. \*\* I should have read your original post, instead of quoting you from a quote. That was stupid, I apologise. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/119 "2003-06-20T21:33:43Z")
Somewhat similar to the bear hunt dillemma in NJ, where according to state law, [you can only kill a bear if it comes within 10 feet of humans.](http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-3/1053671719180980.xml) Just imagine NJ paretns trying to explain the rules to their toddlers who play out in the backyard. Rule #1 - No peanut butter jelly sandwiches out on the deck. All food and sweets must be consumed indoors. Rule #2 - If a large furry carnivore with huge claws approaches you, yell for help and then lie down and play dead. Don’t move, I can only blast him with my shotgun once he gets within 6 or so paw lengths from you. I wonder: Whatever happened out in CA when people were up in arms over the hunting of cougars after a female jogger was mauled to death a couple years back? Did a judge ever overturn the conviction of the elderly italian guy from (I think) Staten Island who killed a rat cause it was eating the tomatoes from his garden? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138/120 "2003-06-20T21:36:20Z")
I’m somewhat “on the fence” on this issue. Yes, when man invades the territory of predatory animals, than man becomes prey. However, the human settlement is well established, and from what I understand gators will come right up into town and BREAK into a house to eat the family pet/children. This cannot be allowed, humans have the right to survive too. The boy was willful, and acting against common sense, and he paid the ultimate price. It’s still sad, but the tragedy is that the boy did not listen to reason. I think the humans were within their rights to remove a percieved threat in this case. There have been other cases I sided with the critters, like when those people killed that pregnant shark recently. I think that an ordinance should be made that does either one of two things. Either, 1. prohibit fishermen from cleaning fish in that area to prevent attaracting more gators, or 2. prohibit swimming in that area, and build a barrier to prevent gators getting past that area into town even during floods. One way or the other, action should be taken to prevent this happening again. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-year-old-killed-by-gator-humans-respond/183138.md?page=7)