# 12 years old, both arms blown off, family dead, but hey - he's FREE! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517 "2003-04-09T09:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/61 "2003-04-09T15:36:00Z")
**DrLizardo** , the imposing of sanctions _was_ the US’s “way.” The sanctions were just fine with us for ten years, and no one gave a fuck about suffering Iraqis until Junior needed a convenient bin Laden effigy to give the illusion of a victory in his failed “war on terror,” as well as to try to give a shot in the arm to an economy which was dying under his watch. The US never once objected to the sanctions. The US “way” was to starve 1.5 million civilians simply as a _prelude_ to a contrived and illegal invasion staged by an incompetent, dubiously elected president (who also just happens to be a wartime deserter) for self-serving political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/62 "2003-04-09T15:39:37Z")
Sadly, judging from Ali’s burns and his condition, as well as the state of the Baghdad hospitals, I suspect Ali will not be with us for much longer. I blame the Iraqi regime tactics for this, their concern for citizen safety was non-existant. I beleive that if we would have waited for the full U.N. and everyone to come around, the eventual invasion would have involved the same tactics. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/63 "2003-04-09T15:42:10Z")
**DTC** Is Liberia currently in violation of UN resolutions? Is Iran? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/64 "2003-04-09T15:43:40Z")
> [@](#): > > The US never once objected to the sanctions. The US “way” was to starve 1.5 million civilians simply as a prelude to a contrived and illegal invasion staged by an incompetent, dubiously elected president (who also just happens to be a wartime deserter) for self-serving political reasons. did you see the statues of Hussein all over Iraq? Hihs many ornate luxurious palaces? It amazes me that you can seriously cliam that it was the U.S. starving the Iraqi people and not their kleptocratic dictator. You hold the US to an impossibly high standard that you use for no other country. The US has done its best to target specific sites and to minimize civilian casualties, but to hear you tell it, we’re just one step from opening up gas chambers and crematoria in downtown Baghdad. Your opinions are grossly biased, being based on mere knee-jerk anti-Bush sentiment and not on reasoning based on the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![DrLizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DrLizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLizardo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/65 "2003-04-09T15:43:56Z")
Pennylane: > [@](#): > > Which is it, particlewill… > > The U.N. lacked foresight in imposing sanctions which starved Iraqis. > > The U.S. is being heavy-handed by deciding, all of a sudden, that the Iraqis want to be freed of Saddan Hussein’s regime by any means possible. I’m sure particlewill can answer for himself, but I’ll chime in too… It’s #1. EXCEPT I think “lacked foresight” is a pretty spinnerific term for an ongoing 12-year effort where there were clearly no positive results and clearly some very negative results. Even if they did “lack foresight” there were years and years of oppotunity to realize the error and do something effective. So “unbelievably obtuse” is the polite version. “Willfully stupid and obstructionist” is actually more like it. DtC: > [@](#): > > The sanctions were bad policy (and were imposed mostly at the urging of the US) but the UN is still the arbiter of international law. The fact that I may disagree with one law does not then mean that I don’t have to follow any laws. Geeez… So the UN is a pliable US tool when it suits your purposes, and yet we couldn’t get a resolution to invade Iraq… Hmmm. Quick! Zip Up! Your hypocrisy is showing! ---
**Author:** ![Dracula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@Dracula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dracula)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/66 "2003-04-09T15:46:27Z")
I saw this photo myself. just shows the pointlessness of this war. Perhaps when this war is over and all the ‘Axis of evil’ countries have been subdued into mini Americas A new nation will develop of ‘The United States Of People Who Have Been Screwed Over By The US.’ ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/67 "2003-04-09T15:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dracula \* > \*\*I saw this photo myself. > just shows the pointlessness of this war. > Perhaps when this war is over and all the ‘Axis of evil’ countries have been subdued into mini Americas A new nation will develop of ‘The United States Of People Who Have Been Screwed Over By The US.’ \*\* You may want to do yourself a favor and read the entire thread before posting. And welcome. ---
**Author:** ![DrLizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DrLizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLizardo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/68 "2003-04-09T15:55:41Z")
DtC: I know this is the Pit and all… but you have GOT to get at least vaguely connected to some facts. Or overtly admit you’re completely ranting without any supposition of validity. > [@](#): > > DrLizardo, the imposing of sanctions was the US’s “way.” Gee, you just told us a few posts back it was the UN’s way? > [@](#): > > The sanctions were just fine with us for ten years cite? (note: you’re wrong) > [@](#): > > , and no one gave a fuck about suffering Iraqis cite? (note: you’re wrong) > [@](#): > > until Junior needed a convenient bin Laden effigy to give the illusion of a victory in his failed “war on terror,” cite? (note: you’re wrong) > [@](#): > > as well as to try to give a shot in the arm to an economy which was dying under his watch. cite? (note: cite showing that this was his motivation, not that economy was poor) (note II: economy was in a shambles for latter portion of Bubba’s watch too… Lest we forget) > [@](#): > > The US never once objected to the sanctions. cite? (note: you’re wrong) > [@](#): > > The US “way” was to starve 1.5 million civilians This directly contradicts your earlier agreement that the UN is culpable. > [@](#): > > simply as a prelude to a contrived and illegal invasion cite? > [@](#): > > staged by an incompetent cite? > [@](#): > > , dubiously elected president “dubious” is fair here (i.e. you are dubious of it), so will not request cite. > [@](#): > > (who also just happens to be a wartime deserter) cite? (from legitimate media, please) > [@](#): > > for self-serving political reasons. Yeah. Self-serving. Unlike Bill Clinton launching cruise missiles the day before his impeachment hearings… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/69 "2003-04-09T15:59:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrLizardo \* > The UN sanctions caused 1.5 MIL deaths minimum. Here’s a cite giving Saddam’s own government’s figures for it (you can google a few dozen more cites for this. I’m purposely picking one that is, if anything, biased pro-Iraq) > > [www.arabia.com/news/article/english/0,11827,49028,00.html](http://www.arabia.com/news/article/english/0,11827,49028,00.html) > > So according to you, the UN is culpable for 1.5 MIL deaths during the sanctions period. Sanctions which, by all accounts, did not achieve their goal. Waitaminutehere. You’re taking _Saddam_’s word of how many deaths the sanctions caused? Look, we haven’t found any bio/chem stockpiles in Iraq yet. But we _have_ found huge stockpiles of food that seemingly weren’t on their way to being shared with the Iraqi people when we invaded. And we know that Saddam has had the money to build lots more palaces since 1991, while he says Iraqi citizens couldn’t get drugs to treat this and that. You don’t think Saddam had an axe to grind here - that he might’ve opposed the sanctions, and was trying to make them look as bad as possible? That he felt free to attribute deaths to the sanctions that are more easily laid at his feet? I’m not saying the economic sanctions were a good idea; I think there’s both good arguments and evidence that they’re counterproductive against autocrats like Saddam, Castro, or Kim Jong Il, but that’s a debate for another thread. If you’ve got a more dispassionate cite, I’ll be a good deal less skeptical. But _this_ cite is about as good as the _Weekly World News_. ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/70 "2003-04-09T16:09:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*Waitaminutehere. > > You’re taking _Saddam_’s word of how many deaths the sanctions caused? > > Look, we haven’t found any bio/chem stockpiles in Iraq yet. But we _have_ found huge stockpiles of food that seemingly weren’t on their way to being shared with the Iraqi people when we invaded. And we know that Saddam has had the money to build lots more palaces since 1991, while he says Iraqi citizens couldn’t get drugs to treat this and that. > > You don’t think Saddam had an axe to grind here - that he might’ve opposed the sanctions, and was trying to make them look as bad as possible? That he felt free to attribute deaths to the sanctions that are more easily laid at his feet? > > I’m not saying the economic sanctions were a good idea; I think there’s both good arguments and evidence that they’re counterproductive against autocrats like Saddam, Castro, or Kim Jong Il, but that’s a debate for another thread. If you’ve got a more dispassionate cite, I’ll be a good deal less skeptical. But _this_ cite is about as good as the _Weekly World News_. \*\* Although this cite deals strictly with child deaths during the sanctions I think it’s a pretty clear illustration of what was happening. Nearly 6000 children dieing per month is pretty brutal. [http://www.globalpolicy.org/securit...aq1/irakids.htm](http://www.globalpolicy.org/securit...aq1/irakids.htm) ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/71 "2003-04-09T16:11:29Z")
Well, crap I see it’s not working right now. I’ll get back to you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/72 "2003-04-09T16:16:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*\*\*DTC\*\*Is Liberia currently in violation of UN resolutions? Is Iran? \*\* [Yes](http://www.hrw.org/africa/liberia.php) and [yes](http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=4287), but what difference does it make? I thought the “liberation” of Iraq justified itself. If that’s not the real motivation then are we talking about it? ---
**Author:** ![DrLizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DrLizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLizardo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/73 "2003-04-09T16:17:04Z")
RTFirefly: Of course I realize that. My point was to purposely use a source biased in the opposite direction of my own viewpoint. However, here are some cites that may well satisfy you. They’re from a variety of viewpoints. The first one is from an Iraqi opposition group with clearly opposite goals of the Iraq regime. The second from a guy who’s overtly trying to debunk the Iraqi numbers. He focuses on children, not the total, and despite his position he still ends up concluding that reports from UNICEF and an independent UK-based researcher, Richard Garfield, are credible. They show 500,000 excess child deaths (same # as the Iraqis give for that). As stated before, suggest you Google for it if you want more cites – there’s plenty of 'em. [http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/feb1998/toll.shtml](http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/feb1998/toll.shtml) [http://www.mattwelch.com/NatPostSave/Sanctions.htm](http://www.mattwelch.com/NatPostSave/Sanctions.htm) ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/74 "2003-04-09T16:17:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*What’s your point ? > > if you didn’t already know this kind of thing happens in war, you will next time. \*\* This is the point. We all know this kind of thing happens in war. Which is why some of us are so incredulous that war isn’t seen as so fucking awful and horrible that any decent country would go to extreme lengths to avoid it. That we would try every last avenue imaginable before dropping a single bomb. Who cares about saving face, or letting Saddam get away with foot-dragging, or whatever the hell motivated the hawks to go in before all the avenues were exhausted. Wouldn’t it be better to lose a little face than to have one little boy lose his entire family and both arms? Not to mention the other deaths and injuries? That’s our point. The war is going to cost, what, $75 billion? Why not offer Saddam $37.5 billion to go buy himself an island in the Pacific? Everyone wins, we save 50%. Sure, it’s “rewarding” an evil dictator with money, but measured against war? Measured against the deaths of our soliders, of iraqi civilians? I’d put up with that “injustice” any day. ---
**Author:** ![sir\_viks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@sir\_viks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sir_viks)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/75 "2003-04-09T16:24:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\* The war is going to cost, what, $75 billion? Why not offer Saddam $37.5 billion to go buy himself an island in the Pacific? Everyone wins, we save 50%. Sure, it’s “rewarding” an evil dictator with money, but measured against war? Measured against the deaths of our soliders, of iraqi civilians? I’d put up with that “injustice” any day. \*\* How much will the next evil dictator cost us? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/76 "2003-04-09T16:31:44Z")
Probably about $75 billion ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/77 "2003-04-09T16:39:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The fact that I may disagree with one law does not then mean that I don’t have to follow _any_ laws. \*\* Consider it civil disobedience. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/78 "2003-04-09T16:48:01Z")
Interesting quote [here](http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/iraq/ny-wobasr0409.story) It’s from a father in Basra, interviewed at the hospital wher his two year old daughter is lying with a piece of metal in her brain that can’t be removed. He’s been sitting for a week, knowing that nothing can be done medically, hoping against hope that she will recover on her own. He says: > [@](#): > > "I’m sure the British would not bomb civilians if it were not for the Fedayeen,” he said. "We were bombed on April 1, four bombs in all. I brought her here one hour after the bombing. Now, it’s one week.” > > Even with his daughter lying severely injured before him, Hassan paused to explain the emotions welled up inside him. > > "My bosses, those Baathists, they ran away to villages,” he said, in carefully chosen English. "All of them ran away. I think that they treated people badly, so bad, beating them. They attacked people. There were many things they did. They took people away, men, women, boys, girls, they were taken and never returned back. They did many, many terrible things. > > "Now,” he said, "I feel half and half. I’m happy because we have freedom. But I’m sad because there is no peace, no water, no electricity. There is nothing. But Saddam is gone. Dead. Alas.” Interesting that this man, whom nobody could blame for hating coalition forces, still says that the war was the Fedayeen’s responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/79 "2003-04-09T16:51:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Who cares about saving face, or letting Saddam get away with foot-dragging, or whatever the hell motivated the hawks to go in before all the avenues were exhausted. Wouldn’t it be better to lose a little face than to have one little boy lose his entire family and both arms? Not to mention the other deaths and injuries? That’s our point. And a very foolish one it is. You sem not to understand that if the US had done nothing and allowed Saddam to drag his feet, that kid and many like him would be [tortured](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/09/sprj.irq.secret.jail.ap/index.html) and killed by the secret police. > [@](#): > > Hamed told British reporters that Iraqi police locked him and his two brothers in a jail dungeon in 1991, and that he was freed after eight months but his brothers were still missing. > > “They used to strap a leather cord around our head, hands and shoulders and hoist us two feet off the ground. Then they would beat us as we hung there,” Hamed said. > > “They did unthinkable things – electrocution, immersion in a bath of chemicals and ripping off people’s finger and toenails.” Where are your tears for them? ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/80 "2003-04-09T16:51:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sir viks \* > \*\*How much will the next evil dictator cost us? \*\* Obviously my offer was tongue in cheek, but what? You think that someone is going to hatch a plot to become an evil dictator just because there is a chance the U.S. will offer him a bunch of money? And he will successfully wend his way through the ranks of evildom to take over an entire country, just to get the moolah? That’s a stretch for me. The alternative is what? Having children maimed, just because there is an off chance that we might in the future have to do something peacefully expensive to get rid of a shithead? My point is that almost anything OUGHT to be better than this kind of death. We’ll spend money on war, why not spend it on peace? Why not bust our asses to bend over backwards to avoid war? So what if Saddam is a buttreaming asshole who deserves the worst? Why don’t we try every possible means to get rid of the guy in ways that don’t involve hurting innocents. Along those same lines, I am beginning to think we’d be better off ignoring that international agreement about not supporting assassination. We’d rather kill thousands in a crude way of trying to oust Saddam, instead of a nice clean assassination attempt? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517.md?page=5)