# 12 years old, both arms blown off, family dead, but hey - he's FREE! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517 "2003-04-09T09:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/81 "2003-04-09T16:57:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*And a very foolish one it is. You sem not to understand that if the US had done nothing and allowed Saddam to drag his feet, that kid and many like him would be [tortured](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/09/sprj.irq.secret.jail.ap/index.html) and killed by the secret police. > Where are your tears for them? \*\* How can you possibly believe that I don’t care about those people? I warrant I care about them a shitload more than the people who made the decision to go to war at this juncture. We could have been trying much, much much harder to oust that madman, along with the rest of the world, decades ago. Enough, I can’t believe I’m getting in an argument about how much I care about Iraqi prisoners? O the humanity! Alls I am saying is, some of us seem to find war a lot more horrible and a lot less inevtaible. I’m merely stating why we feel so strongly, trying to make people understand why some of us are so upset. I just want to be better understood. God knows there is no point in trying to change anyone’s minds; most people have their opinions made up for personal and long-held reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/82 "2003-04-09T16:59:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrLizardo \* > **DtC: > I know this is the Pit and all… but you have GOT to get at least vaguely connected to some facts. Or overtly admit you’re completely ranting without any supposition of validity. > Gee, you just told us a few posts back it was the UN’s way?** It’s the same thing. The US supported the UN sanctions. > [@](#): > > **cite? (note: you’re wrong)** Really? Was Bush Sr. clamoring to end the UN sanctions? Was Clinton? Was Junior? > [@](#): > > **cite? (note: you’re wrong)** Show me a cite that either the American government or the American public, especially the _conservative_ American public, were opposed to the sanctions in any significant numbers at any time since they were imposed. > [@](#): > > **cite? (note: you’re wrong)** See above > [@](#): > > **cite? (note: cite showing that this was his motivation, not that economy was poor) (note II: economy was in a shambles for latter portion of Bubba’s watch too… Lest we forget)** I believe it’s his motivation because he has utterly failed to show any _other_ justification. He decided to invade first and tried to come up with a reason for it second. He even resorted to citing fictional or forged intelligence reports to try to stampede the American public into his scummy little war. The economy was just fine when Clinton left office. It had receeded a little bit from the unprecedented highs of the mid 90’s but it wasn’t in trouble. Bush hastened the recession with a massive, irresponsible tax giveaway to the richest one percent of Americans. > [@](#): > > **]cite? (note: you’re wrong)** shoe _me_ a cite that the US ever objected to UN sanctions against Iraq. > [@](#): > > **This directly contradicts your earlier agreement that the UN is culpable.** It’s not either/or. They’re both culpable. > [@](#): > > **cite?** It’s illegal by the letter of the UN charter. I say it’s contrived becuause the stated motivation for an invasion has shifted and changed so often that it’s obvious they just wanted an invasion for the sake of an invasion. > [@](#): > > **cite?** Cite for incompetence? Well, let’s see, the economy’s in the shitter, his credibility has been severely damaged by the Enron scandal, he’s internatioanlly (and nationally) regarded as a buffoon. He’s squandered the post 9/11 outpouring of international goodwill by his arrogant, ugly Americanism. He’s failed to pass a single significant or useful piece of legislation. He’s pissed all over the bill of rights with his fascistic “Home Security” and “Patriots” acts, his unconstitutional “faith-based” inititiatives and a general lack of respect for SOCAS. I could go on and on but I won’t. > [@](#): > > **cite? (from legitimate media, please)** [http://www.awolbush.com](http://www.awolbush.com) > [@](#): > > \*\*Yeah. Self-serving. Unlike Bill Clinton launching cruise missiles the day before his impeachment hearings… \*\* Exactly. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/83 "2003-04-09T17:03:25Z")
**CrankyAsAnOldMan** - It’s not _the_ point. It’s a point you’ve attached to someone else’s OP. I happen to agree that we’ve now reached the point where one country so dominates (in spending and technology), it can wage conventional war remotely and with ‘smart weapons’ at a domestic (body bag) price previously only acieveable with ‘instant sunshine’ (Hiroshima). In fact, I posted about this new kind of threshold several times as the war loomed nearer. That’s the new reality, war is only “so fucking awful and horrible” for the enemy of the US – what did the conquest / assimilation / acquisition of Iraq cost, 100 US lives ? And without UN sanction. Indeed, the whole ‘smart technology’ programme was initiated because the military was vulnerable to liberal media attacks on exactly this point (as well as the whole body bag problem). Kinda gets frustrating don’t it ? And, sure, a lot of things would be preferable to blowing up kids. I’m not sure, however, if you’re a psychotic power-mad dictator of your own country with the second largest oil reserves in the world under you, an Island in the middle of nowhere is overly tempting. Sand he’s got, power on the world stage he wants - btw, the keyword there was ‘psychotic’. So yeah, I can understand liberal / Leftie frustrations but lets see what the Iraiq’s have to say about their lives in the 12 years between Gulf Wars – the 12 years in which Saddam learned to divide international opinion and play the international community and the UN like a master. How many kids lost their lives in those 12 years – we’ll never know. In the end, you can’t negotiate with psychotic nutters. They stall, they divide opinion, they prolong. And they kill. Saddam wasn’t going anywhere quietly, especially ClubFed - the man had 12 palaces for crissakes, money he didn’t need. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/84 "2003-04-09T17:04:36Z")
**gobear** , As I mentioned before, Charles Taylor’s regime in Liberia is guilty of the same human rights attrocities as Hussein. Would you support a US led “libertaion” of Liberia? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/85 "2003-04-09T17:05:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by skankweirdall \* > \*\*Cite? \*\* Good lord. I will add to the proposed law that the children and spouses of the President and members of Congress should serve on active duty in the armed forces: under age children of those officials must reside in the war zone. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/86 "2003-04-09T17:09:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrLizardo \* > My point was to purposely use a source biased in the opposite direction of my own viewpoint. However, here are some cites that may well satisfy you. They’re from a variety of viewpoints. I think you meant well, but you have to be more careful. If you were trying to make a case for the negative effects of sanctions, Saddam was emphatically **not** “biased in the opposite direction of [your] own viewpoint.” Anyhow, I’ve checked the one that you claim as support for your revised figure: > [@](#): > > The second from a guy who’s overtly trying to debunk the Iraqi numbers. He focuses on children, not the total, and despite his position he still ends up concluding that reports from UNICEF and an independent UK-based researcher, Richard Garfield, are credible. They show 500,000 excess child deaths (same # as the Iraqis give for that). No, that isn’t what Garfield shows, and even then, he draws the same conclusion as I do: that many of the “excess deaths” are attributable to Saddam, not sanctions: > [@](#): > > Garfield’s conclusion: Between August, 1991, and March, 1998, there were between 106,000 and 227,000 excess deaths of children under five. Recently, he has estimated the latter, less conservative number at 500,000 plus between 1990 and 2002. IOW, Garfield gives us a _range_ of between 106K and 500K excess deaths. The 500K that you’ve cited as his _point estimate_ is in fact, _the high end of his **interval** estimate_. That’s akin to confusing the 50th and 95th percentiles of a statistical distribution. > [@](#): > > Garfield believes that during the last few years of oil-for-food, most of the blame for poor child mortality figures can be laid on the government of Iraq. Since the boost of the high-end estimate from 227K to 500K is due to those years, the conclusion is obvious: the jump in the high-end estimate is, according to Garfield, mostly due to Saddam. > [@](#): > > As stated before, suggest you Google for it if you want more cites – there’s plenty of 'em. If you’re making the assertion, it’s your job to back it up with cites, and all your critics need to do is show that your cites don’t make your case. And when I’m making an assertion, the same rules apply to me. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/87 "2003-04-09T17:10:37Z")
Okay, London Calling, excellent points. And you’re right. And I’m sorry for the semantics of the “The” point. It was “my” point. I’d still like to think, however, that with some good ol’ fashioned American ingenuity (and $75 billion dollars!) we could have offed this guy in a way that put a stop to his cruelty to his own people and ended his threat to the rest of the world. All without hurting anyone else, except maybe a few of his closest pals and henchmen. Surely for that money we could have hatched a nefarious, clever plan? And still had enough money leftover to throw a kick-ass luau for millions of newly-freed citizens in Baghdad? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/88 "2003-04-09T17:10:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I warrant I care about them a shitload more than the people who made the decision to go to war at this juncture. We could have been trying much, much much harder to oust that madman, along with the rest of the world, decades ago. And there would have been tragic instances in that attempt then. Do you imagine that war can ever be done cleanly? Do you think there is some magic wand that can make the bad, bad man go away with no effort? > [@](#): > > Enough, I can’t believe I’m getting in an argument about how much I care about Iraqi prisoners? O the humanity! Alls I am saying is, some of us seem to find war a lot more horrible and a lot less inevtaible. Yet another instance of the Left assuming not that they have more reasonable positions, but that they are superior people because they “caaaaaaaarrrrrrre.” Let me clue you in, sugar; EVERYONE finds war horrible. The trouble is that sometimes war is necessary. > [@](#): > > I’m merely stating why we feel so strongly, trying to make people understand why some of us are so upset. I just want to be better understood. Then write posts from reason, not from emotion. > [@](#): > > God knows there is no point in trying to change anyone’s minds; most people have their opinions made up for personal and long-held reasons. Look in a mirror. ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/89 "2003-04-09T17:14:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\ ***gobear** , As I mentioned before, Charles Taylor’s regime in Liberia is guilty of the same human rights attrocities as Hussein. Would you support a US led “libertaion” of Liberia? \*\* I would. Personally I wouldn’t have a problem with ridding the world of every murdering fuck that’s on the face of this earth. ---
**Author:** ![DrLizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DrLizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLizardo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/90 "2003-04-09T17:15:46Z")
DtC: Let’s see… You made biased and unsupported statements. I indicated this to you and asked for cites. You responded by A) saying ‘no, YOU show ME a cite,’ B) restating your opinion, but still with no credible reference, or C) both. Are you too lazy to back up YOUR assertions, or simply unable to find credible cites that demonstrate them? Of course, you did provide ONE link… [www.awolbush.com](http://www.awolbush.com) doesn’t cut it as credible, though… About as credible and unbiased as, say, [www.probush.com](http://www.probush.com). So if you wanna stick by that cite, you have my apples-to-apples rebuttal to it already… What’s next? I’m guessing the old “fine, don’t believe what’s OBVIOUS to everyone” gambit? Or will it the be the “it’s not my job to prove you’re wrong” (AKA I don’t want to back up my assertions) game? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/91 "2003-04-09T17:17:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\ ***gobear** , As I mentioned before, Charles Taylor’s regime in Liberia is guilty of the same human rights attrocities as Hussein. Would you support a US led “libertaion” of Liberia? \*\* Sure. I don’t know if we have the resources to establish a govenment, but since Liberia was an American creation, we have a special debt to pay the people of Liberia. I think we need to exert more power in the world, not less. I’d like to see American become a crusader to create democracy, to feed nations, to install clean water filtration systems in the Third World. I’d like to see the Peace Corps beefed up, heavily funded, and expanded to every nation on the planet that needs help. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/92 "2003-04-09T17:23:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > Surely for that money we could have hatched a nefarious, clever plan? And still had enough money leftover to throw a kick-ass luau for millions of newly-freed citizens in Baghdad? Look, I’m of the view that until this particular Bush and 9/11 came along, Saddam was the most valuable asset the US military-industrial complex ever had – a dream guy, especially as the Cold War went west; as they say 'round here ‘All mouth and no trousers’ . Now (in this war) he served a different purpose, but Saddam always did serve a purpose, one way or another. But that’s for another day … ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/93 "2003-04-09T17:24:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by whatami \* > If you want a legitimate reason for the invasion, look no further than 1441. It gave the reason and the authority to do what had to be done. I’ve read [Resolution 1441](http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/unscr-resolution-1441.html), and now you can too. Maybe you could be more specific in supporting your claim about it. FWIW, here’s a page of links to [all the UN Security Council resolutions pertaining to Iraq](http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/iraq-documents.html). (It’s better than the [official UN site](http://www.un.org/documents/), linkwise, because it has the text of the resolutions in HTML format, while the UN site does them up in PDF.) ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/94 "2003-04-09T17:27:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\*I’d still like to think, however, that with some good ol’ fashioned American ingenuity (and $75 billion dollars!) we could have offed this guy in a way that put a stop to his cruelty to his own people and ended his threat to the rest of the world. All without hurting anyone else, except maybe a few of his closest pals and henchmen. Surely for that money we could have hatched a nefarious, clever plan? And still had enough money leftover to throw a kick-ass luau for millions of newly-freed citizens in Baghdad? \*\* Sounds great. So what’s the plan? ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/95 "2003-04-09T17:35:59Z")
Jesus holy christ, why are you being like this? This could be a real interesting discussion where you find out why we idiot peacniks feel the way we do. And you turn it into The Parade Of Disdain. Rude! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* Do you imagine that war can ever be done cleanly? Do you think there is some magic wand that can make the bad, bad man go away with no effort? \*\* War can never be done cleanly. We agree utterly on this. There are always tragic consequences. I advocate that whether it’s 20 years ago, 12 years ago, or right now, we bust our asses trying to do anything we can to avoid it coming to blows. Sometimes war is the answer, unfortunately. But I wish it were more often considered the utter last resort. Your magic wand comment… thanks for the vote of confidence. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Yet another instance of the Left assuming not that they have more reasonable positions, but that they are superior people because they “caaaaaaaarrrrrrre.” \*\* What a rude thing to say. Rude. You are trying to turn me into something I am not. I never said I was superior. I am sorry you read it that way. Let me recap: You said (paraphrase) I didn’t whine for the people who suffered so horribly under Saddam, the point being that it was hypocritical for me to cry now for war victims but not for those whom Saddam has tortured. I corrected that perception by announcing that I do care, and accused the Bush administration of caring less. I contend that if they cared, they would have made much stronger international diplomatic efforts to rid Iraq of Saddam, consistently and seriously. This is is no way a condemnation of you or anyone else. You are misreading me utterly. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Let me clue you in, sugar; EVERYONE finds war horrible. The trouble is that sometimes war is necessary. \*\* That’s Ms. Sugar to you. Probably not everyone, but most people, yes, find war horrible. I am talking about a scale, here, where some people find it so horrible as to be unthinkable. I suspect any sentient human can be convinced there is a point at which you simply must take up arms. I know I could be. Where that point is? At what point is is justifiable? That’s what varies; this is where we differ. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **Look in a mirror.** Is this what we call a straw man? I fear you are trying to make me out to look bad; you are picking a fight with me over me supposedly not owning up to my own beliefs. Cranky calls the kettle black! Bullshit, gobear. My beliefs are personal and formed over a long time, and I’ve held them a long time. Just like most people. Which is exactly what I said in my post above. I said I wanted to explain my feelings, not change anyone’s, because I don’t think ANYONE’s opinions about war are formed in some flighty manner. And why might that have been considered a pejorative summary of how beliefs are formed? Why is that an insult? It wasn’t intended to be. I don’t know how else to say this: I’m really disappointed in the manner in which you responded to my post, gobear. ---
**Author:** ![DrLizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DrLizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLizardo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/96 "2003-04-09T17:36:10Z")
RTFirefly: I genuinely appreciate that you took the time to check them out and respond. How about this? Why don’t I just concede the points you made – since it changes nothing: Let’s go with the LOWEST number found. Let’s ignore the first cite I made in that post in its entirety (as you did). Let’s ignore the credible 500,000 child victims number from UNICEF in the second cite (as you did). Let’s ignore that the lowball number we have is from a report that has since been revised to higher figures by its author (as you do note). Let’s ignore that this number we’re talking about is not the totality: it overtly excludes adults and older children (as I noted). Let’s agree the SUM TOTAL TOLL of the sanctions was “only” 106,000 children under 5 Let’s agree to that even though it is clearly not the totality; even though 227,000 would be a more reasonable “bare minimum” figure – even while granting all the assumptions and exclusions above… **It still doesn’t change the fundamental point I was making** ; that it’s far, far more brutal and shameful than what has happened these last 20 days. > [@](#): > > If you’re making the assertion, it’s your job to back it up with cites, and _all your critics need to do is show that your cites don’t make your case_. And when I’m making an assertion, the same rules apply to me. (my italics) – Agreed. But does diminishing one element of one cite actually accomplish that? Let’s look at what’s happened here. You’ve ignored my first cite entirely. Then you’ve focused in on only one element of the second cite (ignoring much of the info in it). I’d say we’re much closer to my cites making the case than not. And, my indication that you _could_ Google more info was supplemental, after providing cites, not a cop-out (though I share your view of it when used that way) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/97 "2003-04-09T17:37:28Z")
**DrLizardo** , everything in the awolbush site links to legitimate news sites and military documents. Find something in there that’s false. You’re asking for negative cites. You ask for cites that the US never objected to UN sanctions. The way to refute that is with a cite that they DID. Can you provide a cite that GWB was NOT involved in the Kennedy assasination? Your link doesn’t go anywhere, btw. **gobear** , at least you’re consistent, I’ll give you that. You’re no hypocrite and I believe that you’re motivated by genuine humanitarian sentiment. I have no issue with your “American crusader” scenario from an idealistic standpoint, but I think it would face some pretty enormous political obstacles, both domestically and internationally. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/98 "2003-04-09T17:39:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Slacker \* > \*\*Sounds great. So what’s the plan? \*\* That’s the problem. I lack the ingenuity to plot how to topple despots. But I know we’ve got some damned clever, sneaky, mean people in Washington who can do it. I figured my role in this plan would be more along the lines of baking a shitload of lemon bars for the luau. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/99 "2003-04-09T17:39:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sir viks \* > \*\*How much will the next evil dictator cost us? \*\* Nothing. Because we’re not going to do anything about him. There’s lots of ‘next evil dictators’ already with us, and the government of the United States frankly doesn’t give a flip. ---
**Author:** ![DrLizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DrLizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLizardo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/100 "2003-04-09T17:46:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve read Resolution 1441, and now you can too. Maybe you could be more specific in supporting your claim about it. Thanks, RTF: I’ve read it before, and my opinion is it can be argued both ways. The pure language alone is so steeped in “diplomat-ese” that it can be twisted to about any interpretation. What I find more compelling is the oft-asserted story that UN Sec. Council members were assured by the U.S., as part of getting the unanimity on this, that military action would require a second resolution. That’s not IN 1441, but is the deciding factor to me. I’m not asserting this scenario as fact (i.e. find yer own cites), simply saying that **I** find it credible and my decision is based on that feeling. Having said I don’t really think 1441 is justification for the war, I must add that I don’t care. I think there are ample justifications for the war, and that having it “blessed” by an anachronistic debating society is immaterial. Whether it’s “illegal” or not is not something I find of interest (the concept of “international law” being pretty damned shaky to start with IMHO). But hey, at least I don’t bullshit about it. Either you think UN sanction matters and the bottom line is basically this war ain’t so sanctioned… Or you don’t care – in which case give it up and quit trying to twist 1441 around to rationalize it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517.md?page=6)