# 12 years old, both arms blown off, family dead, but hey - he's FREE! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517 "2003-04-09T09:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/161 "2003-04-11T02:12:35Z")
Elucidator, you speak confidently with 130 years of hindsight behind you. How do you know that 130 years from now, Dubya won’t be reguarded as the perfect man of his time? ( Stop giggling) I’ve heard endless wailing and knashing of teeth over how this war was “going to be another Viet Nam” ( a claim displaying a woeful lack of historical knowledge ), how there would be “Hundreds of thousands” of dead Iraqis, how we would all die under a wave of Islamic fundamentalism, etc… First, yesterday’s statue ceremony notwithstanding, the war isn’t over yet. It has gone very well so far, however, but it’s not over. Second, the hard part is going to be the aftermath of the war, that hasn’t even started yet and it’s already been declared an absolute failure by the anti-war crowd. Bush and company could very well found a stable post war government in Iraq. ( Liberal, western-style democracy is frankly a pipe dream, but a stable regime such as Jordan enjoys is certainly possible ) The pubbies could fuck it up completely. The point is WE DON’T KNOW YET. Why not wait and see what happens before proclaiming the whole thing a failure? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/162 "2003-04-11T02:19:38Z")
> [@](#): > > …The point is WE DON’T KNOW YET. Why not wait and see what happens before proclaiming the whole thing a failure?.. Well, yeah. Which is to say, duh. The trajectory of the shit is going to intersect the locus of the fan, and the splatter pattern remains uncertain. But it _is_ shit, and it _is_ the fan, so… ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/163 "2003-04-11T02:23:53Z")
**elucidator** , you’re good at putting words in people’s mouths, aren’t you. I did not say that WWII was fought for the purpose of saving the Jews, nor the Civil War for the purpose of freeing the slaves. But Hitler, who was undeniably “vile and depraved”, had to be stopped. And the South rebelled partly (I said partly)because they wouldn’t agree to cease a vile and depraved practice. War **is** hell, and there’s no denying that. But so is living under a crazed dictator. And for the Iraqis, that’s over. I still haven’t heard of a better solution, not that it matters at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/164 "2003-04-11T02:27:04Z")
> [@](#): > > But it is shit, and it is the fan, so… This is entirely your opinion, based not on facts but on your emotions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/165 "2003-04-11T02:36:32Z")
Well, ok, **Rilchiam** , if this was such a great idea, how come he had to lie us into it? ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/166 "2003-04-11T02:41:50Z")
Prove that he did. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/167 "2003-04-11T02:52:15Z")
You’re kidding, right? With a straight face, you’ll look me right in the eye and say “GeeDubya says it, I believe it, and that settles it!” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/168 "2003-04-11T02:54:29Z")
Elucidator: You don’t know me, and my experience has shown that while you’re occasionally humorous, the great majority of our discourse consists of you baiting me and falsely attributing attitudes and stances to me that I do not have. This latter is a technique you use a lot. You tell other people what they think. Making things up, and telling people what they think so you can put it down is a different thing from engaging them in discourse. Most people don’t do this. Quite frankly, people that engage me seriously and openly are much more with more time than those that don’t. More importantly, by wasting my time and getting frustrated with people that don’t, I have discovered that I take out my frustrations on people that are debating in good faith, and then my presence is not constructive. If you want to defend the asshole who attacked me or accuse me of using that boy’s suffering to pimp my agenda when it’s pretty clear I was advocating nothing more than skepticism, be my guest. However, I’m not going to engage you on this baiting crap of yours any more. This however does deserve a “fuck you.” > [@](#): > > I know you better than he, I know what I regard as moral outrage you are inclined to see as simply a rather vigorous form of Darwinism. Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/169 "2003-04-11T02:56:53Z")
And a hearty return, as well. Have you a horse? ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_Andrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ian\_Andrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_Andrew)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/170 "2003-04-11T03:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \* > \*\*Thank you **Reuban**! We’re all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. Your post is an orgy of stultifying cacophonous verbal depravity; an exercise in literary impotence, and an offense to all of good taste and decency. Many people want this war to end. And there are going to be casualties. IT’S A FRIGG’IN WAR FOR CHRISSAKE!! Innocent people Die. Some volunteer to erase moral depravity from the face of the earth while others latently sit by and wag their tail at every person who decides to support our troops. The story of the young boy is tragic, but the story of the 5 million other people who will not have to live in fear for their life anymore out weighs the atrocities the are inflicted at times of war. \*\* Bravo!! One of the most tiring things to listen to is the diatribes that peaceniks constantly spout that they believe can change the world by sitting around and protesting various actions that are taking place without ever truly coming up with a solution that works. This is by far the first war with the least amount of atrocities, which truly has been done for the greeater good. The peaceful way was tried. I came home from an unfinished task on March 29, 1991. We gave Saddam 12 Years to comply. The peaceful way did not work. During those 12 years more people died than during the length of this current war. It was time to finish it. “No man is worth his salt who is not ready at all times to risk his well-being, to risk his body, to risk his life, in a great cause” Theodore Roosevelt ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/171 "2003-04-11T04:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*You’re kidding, right? With a straight face, you’ll look me right in the eye and say “GeeDubya says it, I believe it, and that settles it!” \*\* Please don’t bite my sig for your cause. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/172 "2003-04-11T08:25:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*I was saying the same thing after Colin Powell made his presentation at the UN to try and justify the war, but the hawks wouldn’t listen. \*\* Iteresting you should bring that up. When they broke into _The Price is Right_ to show us that speech, my SO and I discussed how uncomfortable Powell looked, in contrast to how he usually seemed. We thought that maybe he didn’t really believe what he was saying… ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/173 "2003-04-11T09:36:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\* > Really? The American Civil War, which preserved the Union and gave rise to the Emancipation Proclamation? WWII, which stopped Hitler from taking over the world? Who was vile and depraved—the guy who sentenced people to concentration camps, or the people who liberated them? \*\* What you neglect, of course, is that the US was forced into that war kicking and screaming. The US had no intention to liberate these people. Germany declared war on the US, not vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/174 "2003-04-11T09:42:31Z")
I already said that I know the Civil War wasn’t about the slaves, and that WWII wasn’t about the Jews. But. At the end of the day, with the United States still united, and the Third Reich dismantled, can you really say those wars were vile and depraved? ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/175 "2003-04-11T09:43:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ian Andrew \* > \*\*Bravo!! > One of the most tiring things to listen to is the diatribes that peaceniks constantly spout that they believe can change the world by sitting around and protesting various actions that are taking place without ever truly coming up with a solution that works. This is by far the first war with the least amount of atrocities, which truly has been done for the greeater good. The peaceful way was tried. I came home from an unfinished task on March 29, 1991. We gave Saddam 12 Years to comply. The peaceful way did not work. During those 12 years more people died than during the length of this current war. It was time to finish it. > \*\* Sorry, man, but the peaceful way did work quite well while it was given a chance. It destroyed more chemical weapons and more of the nuclear and bioweapons program than the entire armed forces involved. The first war with the least amount of atrocities done for the greater good? The fact that you were there in 91 is scary enough. Given that your respect for the Geneva Conventions is no greater than that of Saddam, it is obvious in whose good you are interested. Certainly not in that of Iraqi civilians. You have to decide. Either you are willing to lay down your life for them, or stop bullshitting us. And if the first, you rather have an Iraqi unit move ad lib than throwing cluster bombs at a village. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/176 "2003-04-11T09:45:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\*I already said that I know the Civil War wasn’t about the slaves, and that WWII wasn’t about the Jews. But. At the end of the day, with the United States still united, and the Third Reich dismantled, can you really say those wars were vile and depraved? \*\* Obviously, since it wasn’t the US who started them. Without the war, millions of innocent people would have lived. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/177 "2003-04-11T10:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > … which stopped Hitler from taking over the world? Oh, fuck off you ignorant twat. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/178 "2003-04-11T10:09:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Oh, fuck off you ignorant twat. \*\* …I beg your pardon?.. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/179 "2003-04-11T10:16:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Oh, fuck off you ignorant twat. \*\* So, WW2 _didn’t_ stop Hitler from conquering the world? That’s news to me. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517/180 "2003-04-11T10:17:54Z")
> [@](#): > > …I beg your pardon?.. He said. \*\* Oh, fuck off you ignorant twat. \*\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-old-both-arms-blown-off-family-dead-but-hey-hes-free/167517.md?page=10)