# 13 Most Corrupt Members of Congress **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471 "2005-10-10T00:43:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/41 "2005-10-10T21:25:31Z")
> [@Sam Hell](#): > > As a citizen of PA I just want to say that I find it amusing that no one has tried to deny Santorum’s corruption. Neither of the things on that website are convincing to me. First, these residency controversies have bitten a lot of politicians recently, including Tom Daschle, who claimed a homestead exemption for his home in DC, even though that exemption has to be used for someone’s primary residence. Which, as everyone knows for pols on the Hill, isn’t DC, now is it? I think the matter ought to be settled once and for all with some ethics rules or legislation, given how much controversy there’s been on the subject. Until then, I’ll just regard sniping about a politician “really living inside the Beltway” one of those perennial bits of rhetoric that don’t matter much. The AccuWeather thing, similarly, doesn’t impress me too much, for the simple reason that AccuWeather is a Pennsylvania based company. Congressmen and Senators ought to be counted on to support homegrown companies and industries. Not that I agree with Santorum’s action here, but they are hardly unique in the annals of corrupt behavior. Indeed, they don’t seem corrupt in the slightest. Just misguided and unwise. (Disclaimer: I was once an intern for then-Congressman Santorum. At that time I worked extensively in a case a Pittsburgh-based company had with the federal government, which certainly influences my thinking here.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/42 "2005-10-10T21:58:31Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > They’re not directly tax dollars, but they come from contributions that are tax deductible Really? I could be very, very ignorant here, but I thought that political contributions were not tax deductible. > [@](#): > > and that possibly pull dollars from the tax coffers by virtue of the fact that presidential candidates of the two power parties pay themselves federal matching funds for campaigns. I’m not seeing the connection. Are you saying that Barbara Boxer’s PAC’s donations increase the number of tax dollars that go toward public-financing of campaigns? > [@](#): > > In the case of House members, campaigns persist in perpetuity. They also may come substantially from dollars that would not otherwise have existed, but for favorable tax legislation and regulatory favor; e.g., a person who has benefited from a tax break thanks to Senator Smith might be inclined to contribute some money to Smith’s PAC. If that’s the case, the problem exists whether or not she gave that money to her son: the corruption for which she should be cited is the money that occurred when a _quid pro quo_ was entered into by Boxer and a donor. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/43 "2005-10-10T23:32:34Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Where my issue lies is with their using the word “corrupt” where it does not seem to be applicable. Had they titled the article “Marilyn Musgrave skates the line on campaign finance laws,” I’d not have a problem. I don’t see corruption there. OK, got it. Which leads me to ask a question I was mulling over when writing my response – what qualifies as corruption? From [here](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=corruption): > [@](#): > > 1: lack of integrity or honesty (especially susceptibility to bribery); use of a position of trust for dishonest gain Do you feel that an action must be illegal to qualify as corruption? (Anyone please feel free to answer this.) If not, where does one draw the line (and using what measure)? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/44 "2005-10-11T01:43:12Z")
> [@caveman](#): > > I’ll have you know that this comment _forced_ me to go find out what county Asheville, NC is in. A pure gal left her mother She was fur away from home She walked the streets of Asheville So cold and so alone A man, he come up to her And took her by the arm And said, "Now, I’ll be good to you “And see you have no harm!” He took her down a back street Into a house of sin And once that poor gal went inside She never come out again! Just a picture from life’s other side Somebody who fell by the way A light has gone out with the tide The tide That might have been happy someday Someday Some poor old mother at home alone Waitin’ and watchin’ in vain Waitin’ to hear From a loved one so dear Just a picture from life’s other side! (I had to learn to sing that when I was cast in a minor part in “Dark of the Moon” ([http://www.gcplayhouse.org/data/gcp\_plays/darkmoon.htm](http://www.gcplayhouse.org/data/gcp_plays/darkmoon.htm)) in college. The director cut the song before the opening.) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/45 "2005-10-11T04:09:38Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Really? I could be very, very ignorant here, but I thought that political contributions were not tax deductible. Contributions to PACs are not tax deductable. Contributions to 501c(3)s are tax deductable, but they are not mentioned here. If a Presidential candidate agrees to limit his or her expenditures, he can receive matching contributions from the government. IIRC, Kerry and Bush did not receive matching contributions, because they did not limit their expenditures. [http://www.opensecrets.org/regulation/kgross.htm](http://www.opensecrets.org/regulation/kgross.htm) Less clear: [http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96112,00.html](http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96112,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/46 "2005-10-11T10:34:04Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Contributions to PACs are not tax deductable. > > Contributions to 501c(3)s are tax deductable, but they are not mentioned here. Right, and: 1. 501c(3)s are strictly limited in their ability to participate in the political process; and 2. The donations we’re looking at here are PAC donations. So as near as I can tell, Barb’s nepotism doesn’t impact tax expenditures. Meaning that while it might annoy me had I contributed to her campaign, it doesn’t annoy me otherwise. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/47 "2005-10-11T10:47:22Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Moran is a thug who has been violent several times in the past. Allegations of domestic abuse were made against him by his ex-wife, backed up by cops who were called out often to their home. What does domestic violence have to do with corruption? Just because he has other character flaws (like being a liberal?) doesn’t make him corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/48 "2005-10-11T11:02:35Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > What does domestic violence have to do with corruption? Just because he has other character flaws (like being a liberal?) doesn’t make him corrupt. I was trying to paint a full picture of the man. I got to his corruption, didn’t I? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/49 "2005-10-11T11:03:56Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Right, and: > > 1. 501c(3)s are strictly limited in their ability to participate in the political process; and > 2. The donations we’re looking at here are PAC donations. > > So as near as I can tell, Barb’s nepotism doesn’t impact tax expenditures. Meaning that while it might annoy me had I contributed to her campaign, it doesn’t annoy me otherwise. > > Daniel That makes sense. In retrospect, the point I was making was weak. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/50 "2005-10-11T12:00:41Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I was trying to paint a full picture of the man. If by “paint a full picture” you meant “muddy the waters”, I’d say you succeeded. Apparently you thought his purported corruption was not serious enough to stand on its own without embellishment with unrelated character flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/51 "2005-10-11T12:00:47Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > This list appears to be partisan sniping. An honest list of corrupt bastards would include Jim Moran, my old congressman when I lived in Arlington. Yet he is mysteriously missing here. > > My honest Democratic friends on this board would likely agree with me on that one. I think _The New Republic_ recently put Moran on a list of “reapers” who vote against Democratic and liberal principles and in favour of big business in order to rake in the contributions. Moran’s votes and his behaviour are highly suspect – he seems to get involved in some strange situations. He once grabbed a child by the neck in a school parking lot. I suspect substance abuse might be involved. I’ll vote against Moran in any Democratic primary. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/52 "2005-10-11T12:09:21Z")
As to the question of whether anyone has been indicted, to me “corrupt” does not mean “convicted of a crime.” Any behaviour that I would consider suspect, possibly unethical, nepotistic, or creating the appearance of a conflict of interest qualifies in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/53 "2005-10-11T14:39:37Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > If by “paint a full picture” you meant “muddy the waters”, I’d say you succeeded. Apparently you thought his purported corruption was not serious enough to stand on its own without embellishment with unrelated character flaws. If that’s a flaw, it’s one I share with the Washington Post editorial board, who mentioned Rep. Moran’s domestic problems, his manhandling of an 8 year old boy, and his corruption in my quoted article. I’ll happily pull the domestic abuse and the pugilism from consideration, if you wish. Not that Jim Moran is innocent of these things, mind. Far from it. Just that, even without these considerations, you’re left with a congressman who has sold his vote on two separate occasions. And I’m not talking about campaign donations here. Terry Lierman gave Jim Moran an unsecured $25,000 loan with no repayment schedule, while Lierman was a lobbyist for the maker of Claritin. And he refinanced a home with MBNA to pay off $30,000 in MBNA credit cards on which he was way behind in payments. A couple of days later, he showed up as the chief Democratic co-sponsor of bankruptcy legislation strongly supported by his creditors. I see **acsenray** shares my assessment of the man. And note, I’m not saying there aren’t corrupt bastards on the Republican side. I just noted that this particular list didn’t include this notorious bastard, and seemed to tilt heavily Republican. That led me to suspect its motives, especially on a site named beyonddelay. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/54 "2005-10-12T05:19:44Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Moran is a thug who has been violent several times in the past. Allegations of domestic abuse were made against him by his ex-wife, backed up by cops who were called out often to their home. > > In addition to this, the man has chronic financial problems that he tries to solve by putting his vote up for sale. The Washington Post saw it thusly, [when they endorsed his Republican challenger in 2002:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A49826-2002Oct18?language=printer) IOW, no, you have nothing to add to what the Wikipedia article said about Moran. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/55 "2005-10-12T10:31:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > IOW, no, you have nothing to add to what the Wikipedia article said about Moran. The Wikipedia article included nothing about Moran’s loan from a drug company lobbyist, did it? But the Washington Post did include that information, plus evidence of a quid pro quo toward that lobbyist. Again, from my cite: > [@Washington Post](#): > > Mr. Moran has endured more than a few disturbing times during his congressional career, including a rough domestic scene, heavy financial losses, a pugilistic skirmish with an Alexandria boy and acceptance of an unsecured, open-ended $25,000 loan at below-market interest rates from a lobbyist – followed five days later by the congressman’s enlistment as a co-sponsor of a bill to help the lobbyist’s company preserve its monopoly on an allergy drug. So Wikipedia didn’t present a comprehensive picture of this man’s corruption. Not surprising, as Wikipedia isn’t supposed to be comprehensive, is it? I certainly did have more to add here. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/56 "2005-10-12T12:52:04Z")
Which demonstrates the trouble with debating this kind of thing on the SDMB. Here we have an OP alleging to be a list of the “13 Most Corrupt Members of Congress”. Why 13? Probably 14 thru 25 of the list would be mostly Democrats. And the mere mention of a Congressman who is not on the list, but is at least as corrupt as anyone who was, triggers the usual barrage of belittlement - because he is a Democrat. I suspect this kind of “I don’t want to hear about it if it affects the Democrats” underlies much of the idea hereabouts that Republicans are more evil than Democrats. Because you guys only pay attention to one side. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/57 "2005-10-12T12:54:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Here we have an OP alleging to be a list of the “13 Most Corrupt Members of Congress”. Why 13? Probably 14 thru 25 of the list would be mostly Democrats. Cite? If you can’t prove it, it is just another wild speculation. But you knew that, and posted anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/58 "2005-10-12T13:24:39Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > If you can’t prove it, it is just another wild speculation. But it’s worse than that. Even if the charge of slanted debating style is true (which it certainly is in some cases), what bugs me is the underlying hypocrisy: “You Democrat supporters won’t consider charges of corruption for one of your own, but I’m going to criticize this list because it’s mostly Republicans.” (Not referring to you personally, **Shodan** , as you didn’t directly criticize the list itself; rather, you artfully ducked that charge by tucking speculation about 14-25 into your criticism.) Personally, what I’d like to see is a litany of Doper’s opinions on various Congresscritters and why they’re held. It would be _extremely_ informative. Party affiliation be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/59 "2005-10-12T13:32:05Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > But it’s worse than that. Even if the charge of slanted debating style is true (which it certainly is in some cases), what bugs me is the underlying hypocrisy: “You Democrat supporters won’t consider charges of corruption for one of your own, but I’m going to criticize this list because it’s mostly Republicans.” No. I don’t think Democrats won’t consider charges of corruption against their own. Some won’t, of course, but honest ones will. I saw that list as a partisan cherry pick because it omitted a particularly corrupt hack on the Democratic side, and I called them on it. I didn’t mean it as any kind of tu quoque. It isn’t a defense of the Republicans - it’s merely an attack of this list. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471/60 "2005-10-12T13:54:58Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I saw that list as a partisan cherry pick because it omitted a particularly corrupt hack on the Democratic side, and I called them on it. Which is how it should be, and I thank you for it. I had never heard of Jim Moran before this. And I am now more familiar with 501c laws. The list may very well be cherry picked to put Republicans in a bad light. Perhaps CREW is a Democrat funded organization. I don’t know and actually, I don’t care, so long as their findings are legitimate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-most-corrupt-members-of-congress/325471.md?page=4)