# 13 October 2015 Democratic debate (for commentary during & after) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 14, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593 "2015-10-14T00:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/201 "2015-10-15T16:12:22Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Yes. > > cite? [https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00000019](https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00000019) **Time Warner** $501,831 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/202 "2015-10-15T16:37:28Z")
I’m not surprised who won the online polls and who impressed the establishment old media. However it would be a mistake to think that somehow Time Warner bosses pulled strings to get Clinton the lead mention in their newspapers. This isn’t Fox News, there’s no direct line from the TW CEO’s office to the newsroom manager at CNN telling them to make one of their reporters write that Clinton won. I feel that the truth is probably that old establishment types populate the newsrooms of the big media corporations moreso than the demographic Sanders resonates with, and that because of that, Clinton’s message impressed them more than Sanders’ message. There’s no conspiracy to push Clinton, they just simply like her more ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/203 "2015-10-15T16:54:39Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > [https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00000019](https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00000019) > **Time Warner** $501,831 I note that that figure is from 1996-2016 and the website lists her as “Senator Hillary C.inton”; do you have any more recent data to show that Time Warner has been contributing to her 2016 presidential campaign? ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/204 "2015-10-15T17:28:25Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > [https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00000019](https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00000019) > **Time Warner** $501,831 Also, it looks like 476,831 of that came from individuals associated with Time Warner or their families. I don’t think that can reasonably be construed as a donation from Time Warner. [QUOTE=OpenSecrets] This table lists the top donors to this candidate in 1999-2016. **The organizations themselves did not donate, rather the money came from the organizations’ PACs, their individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals’ immediate families.** [/QUOTE] Emphasis in original. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/205 "2015-10-15T17:34:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I note that that figure is from 1996-2016 and the website lists her as “Senator Hillary C.inton”; do you have any more recent data to show that Time Warner has been contributing to her 2016 presidential campaign? Yes and no: [https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000019&cycle=2016&type=f](https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000019&cycle=2016&type=f). Yes, because you can see there that “Time Warner” donated $87k to her presidential campaign. No, because there isn’t enough data there to determine how much is from PACs associated with Time Warner vs. execs vs. regular employees vs. employees’ families. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/206 "2015-10-15T17:36:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > **And not only did he give the Democrats the majority in 2006, without him there’d be no ACA.** > > If liberals were actually able to purge everyone they didn’t like, pretty much none of the accomplishments they point to as part of their heritage would ever have happened. (Bolding, mine. That could be said about any Senator elected in that election with a (D) after his or her name, like Sen Franken. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/207 "2015-10-15T17:50:17Z")
No, if we progressives could purge Congress of people who most impede progress, we’d start with the worst of **adaher** ’s party. There is no ideological purity movement of significance in the Democratic Party, the Sanders camp notwithstanding, certainly not like the one you see tearing the Republicans apart. Speaking of which, **adaher** , what are the most noteworthy “accomplishments” \*you \*point to as part of \*their \*heritage, by comparison? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/208 "2015-10-15T18:13:31Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Also, it looks like 476,831 of that came from individuals associated with Time Warner or their families. I don’t think that can reasonably be construed as a donation from Time Warner. > > Emphasis in original. And there is no proof that people at the helm in Time Warner did not contribute on behalf of their organisation. [https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000019&cycle=2016&type=f](https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000019&cycle=2016&type=f) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/209 "2015-10-15T18:14:28Z")
Or could it be that the LSM didn’t report about online polls because online polls are bullshit? Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/210 "2015-10-15T18:28:22Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And there is no proof that people at the helm in Time Warner did not contribute on behalf of their organisation. > > [https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000019&cycle=2016&type=f](https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000019&cycle=2016&type=f) Sure. So, to summarize, here’s what we know: - Time Warner donated $25k to Clinton’s Senate campaigns starting in 2002 through its PAC - Time Warner employees have also made contributions to Clinton’s campaign - CNN is owned by Time Warner - CNN (along with pretty much every other mainstream organization) declared Clinton the winner of the first Democratic debate - Online, non-scientific polls and focus groups of unknown methodology declared Sanders the winner Are you actually trying to put together some sort of conspiracy theory out of all that? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/211 "2015-10-15T18:51:19Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Sure. So, to summarize, here’s what we know: > > - Time Warner donated $25k to Clinton’s Senate campaigns starting in 2002 through its PAC > > - Time Warner employees have also made contributions to Clinton’s campaign > > - CNN is owned by Time Warner > > - CNN (along with pretty much **every other mainstream organization** ) declared Clinton the winner of the first Democratic debate > > - Online, non-scientific polls and focus groups of unknown methodology declared Sanders the winner > > Are you actually trying to put together some sort of conspiracy theory out of all that? I don’t think you need help from me to organise some conspiracy theory. Isn’t there a conflict of interest if the news organisations parent company you’re having a platform on is also the one in which has regularly made payments for you to be in the senate and for the presidential leadership campaign? > **[AcehGround](https://www.acehground.com)** > > AcehGround.com merupakan Portal Berita Aceh yang menyajikan Berita Terkini mulai dari Berita skala Daerah, Nasional hingga Internasional. > [@](#): > > **ElvisL1ves** > Or could it be that the LSM didn’t report about online polls because online polls are bullshit? > > Just sayin’. They did focus groups as well, and he still won, by a large margin. Even if it is bullshit, you’d think that if Hillary was doing quite well, there’d be some evening out of the poll numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/212 "2015-10-15T18:54:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t think you need help from me to organise some conspiracy theory. Sorry, man. No meat on that bone. > [@](#): > > Isn’t there a conflict of interest if the news organisations parent company you’re having a platform on is also the one in which has regularly made payments for you to be in the senate and for the presidential leadership campaign? Perhaps. But not automatically. Responsible media organizations tend to separate actual content concerns (straight news, opinion, etc) from business concerns. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/213 "2015-10-15T18:59:46Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > They did focus groups as well, and he still won, by a large margin. Who is “they”, and how were these focus groups assembled? A gathering of the State U. Feel the Bern club can qualify as one, for instance. > [@](#): > > Even if it is bullshit, you’d think that if Hillary was doing quite well, there’d be some evening out of the poll numbers. Bullshit is bullshit even if it tells you what you want to hear. Responsible journalists know that and don’t report it. Polls take a few days to assemble. Check again over the weekend. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/214 "2015-10-15T19:04:17Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Yes and no: [https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000019&cycle=2016&type=f](https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000019&cycle=2016&type=f). Yes, because you can see there that “Time Warner” donated $87k to her presidential campaign. No, because there isn’t enough data there to determine how much is from PACs associated with Time Warner vs. execs vs. regular employees vs. employees’ families. There’s a reason OpenSecrets reports it that way, and it’s the same reason there’s a requirement to report employers of contributors over a certain amount. There’s a link on the page. Surely you see how fishy it would look if we discount the CEO’s contributions to the various campaigns as not really being from Time Warner. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/215 "2015-10-15T19:07:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > There’s a reason OpenSecrets reports it that way, and it’s the same reason there’s a requirement to report employers of contributors over a certain amount. There’s a link on the page. Surely you see how fishy it would look if we discount the CEO’s contributions to the various campaigns as not really being from Time Warner. Oh, don’t get me wrong, I understand that. But there’s no real breakdown there - oh hell, I already said this: [QUOTE=me] there isn’t enough data there to determine how much is from PACs associated with Time Warner vs. **execs** vs. regular employees vs. employees’ families. [/QUOTE] (Bolding added.) I absolutely think it’s reasonable to count executive contributions as being from Time Warner. I don’t think it’s reasonable to count Joe Schmo’s contribution, just because he works there. And given the data as-is, they’re rolled together. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/216 "2015-10-15T19:11:39Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I think most Americans would disagree. Issues like income inequality, the environment, gun control, sustainable energy, Citizens United, Wall Street reform, etc. are real issues most people care about. (post shortened) It’s difficult to believe that “most” Americans would disagree or that those are the real issues that “most” people care about. Both GOP debates outdrew the DNC debate. “More” Americans seem to be “more” interested in what the GOP candidates had to say. \*More than 15 million people tuned in to CNN to watch the Democratic presidential candidates’ debate on Tuesday night, according to Nielsen ratings data provided by the network. The audience for the debate was nearly two-thirds the size of the two earlier Republican presidential debates, …The viewership for the Republican debates was slightly less than 24 million on Fox News in August and nearly 23 million on CNN last month\*. > **[Democratic Debate Draws Over 15 Million to CNN, a Record for the Party...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/us/politics/democratic-debate-ratings-cnn.html?_r=0)** > > The date by the Nielsen ratings averaged 15.3 million on CNN, the highest ever for a Democratic presidential primary debate. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/217 "2015-10-15T19:13:35Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > It’s difficult to believe that “most” Americans would disagree or that those are the real issues that “most” people care about. Both GOP debates outdrew the DNC debate. “More” Americans seem to be “more” interested in what the GOP candidates had to say. > > \*More than 15 million people tuned in to CNN to watch the Democratic presidential candidates’ debate on Tuesday night, according to Nielsen ratings data provided by the network. > > The audience for the debate was nearly two-thirds the size of the two earlier Republican presidential debates, > > …The viewership for the Republican debates was slightly less than 24 million on Fox News in August and nearly 23 million on CNN last month\*. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/us/politics/democratic-debate-ratings-cnn.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/us/politics/democratic-debate-ratings-cnn.html?_r=0) Can you think of any other reason that would be? Some sort of trump card the GOP debate organizers might have held? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/218 "2015-10-15T19:15:39Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “More” Americans seem to be “more” interested in what the GOP candidates had to say. You can _always_ sell tickets to a circus. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/219 "2015-10-15T19:16:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **ElvisL1ves** > Who is “they”, and how were these focus groups assembled? A gathering of the State U. Feel the Bern club can qualify as one, for instance. > **[Focus groups: Clinton lost the debate because she's "tame." Sanders won...](https://www.vox.com/2015/10/14/9530799/focus-groups-democratic-debate)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... > [@](#): > > It wasn’t because of Bernie’s policy ideas but because of his demeanor: he was “strong,” “direct,” and “powerful,” where Clinton was “too tame,” focus group members said. This was true across the board. CNN’s panel of undecided voters in Nevada, Fox News’s group of Florida Democrats facilitated by pollster Frank Luntz; Fusion’s focus group of millennial voters in Miami: All went strongly for Bernie, and style was the number one reason. > [@](#): > > Bullshit is bullshit even if it tells you what you want to hear. Responsible journalists know that and don’t report it. > > Polls take a few days to assemble. Check again over the weekend. I’ll wait then. But bear this in mind, in March, Hillary had a lead of around 60%, Sanders had something around 0.5%. Now flash forward 8 months later, her point lead has dropped to the mid 40’s and sanders is hovering around the mid 20’s mark. [http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary](http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/220 "2015-10-15T19:17:31Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s difficult to believe that “most” Americans would disagree or that those are the real issues that “most” people care about. Both GOP debates outdrew the DNC debate. “More” Americans seem to be “more” interested in what the GOP candidates had to say. The clown car is also popular at the circus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593.md?page=12)