# 13 October 2015 Democratic debate (for commentary during & after) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 14, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593 "2015-10-14T00:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/121 "2015-10-14T15:39:11Z")
If O’Malley, Chafee, and Webb got out of the race Bernie’s poll numbers would rise by almost 2.5%. Aren’t we looking at the Democratic ticket up there? I’d feel better if it was Sanders/Clinton but it’s going to be the other way around. Quote of the night: “Glass-Steagall was my first vote. I’d just arrived. The dog ate my vote.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/122 "2015-10-14T15:41:42Z")
The VP will almost certainly be someone not running. Put Warren and Booker at the top of your list. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/123 "2015-10-14T16:10:45Z")
A very strong night for Hillary. Maybe the best I’ve ever seen her. Still wish someone asked Bernie point-blank, “Are you a Democrat?” Came across as too wound-up - almost angry. O’Malley didn’t make a vivid-enough impression, although his closing was very good. He was smart to emphasize his experience actually running a city and a state, and getting stuff done. He still has my support. Webb was stiff, sometimes tongue-tied and just didn’t seem to belong up there. Chaffee didn’t do himself any favors. Blaming a bad vote on his dad’s recent death and being new to the Senate was particularly cringeworthy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/124 "2015-10-14T16:13:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The VP will almost certainly be someone not running. Put Warren and Booker at the top of your list. Does the “almost” keep that from being official? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/125 "2015-10-14T16:15:50Z")
If Clinton is the nominee, I predict 100% that the VP nominee was not on that stage. If it’s Sanders, I’m less certain, but it’s still probable. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/126 "2015-10-14T16:25:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If Clinton is the nominee, I predict 100% that the VP nominee was not on that stage. > > … Could it be Bill? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/127 "2015-10-14T16:28:26Z")
Vilsack, Terry Mac, Howard Dean are my top 3 if Clinton gets the nomination. Vilsack and Terry Mac are longtime friends and supporters and ready to be President on day 1. Dean is all of those things as well plus would create the same excitement among liberals as Sanders, without the “socialist” baggage. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/128 "2015-10-14T16:31:29Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Could it be Bill? Bill in ineligible for the vice presidency on the grounds of being ineligible for the presidency. It won’t be McAuliffe. He just exudes creepiness as much as Nixon. Dean and Booker would be fine choices. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/129 "2015-10-14T16:33:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Once E-verify is in place everywhere, they’ll all go home. No place to work. Fake docs won’t work anymore. Is this sarcasm, or do you actually believe this? 😃 I don’t know the percentage of undocumented immigrants who have fake documents, but it may not be as high as you think. In my wife’s extended family there are some who’ve been here for decades without documents of any kind working in restaurants and in construction. Yes, I know, anecdotes schmanecdotes, but it’s a data point. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/130 "2015-10-14T16:38:19Z")
That’s pretty much all we have. Statistics are pretty unreliable with that population for obvious reasons. It’s actually the easiest thing in the world to go after employers, the government just doesn’t want to. E-verify takes care of the well meaning employers and employee file audits takes care of the criminal ones. When I worked for Pizza Hut our files got audited twice a year. $10,000 for each missing document. Find a factory with 400 employees, all undocumented? That’s a cool $4 million. Bet that shuts 'em down. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/131 "2015-10-14T16:46:02Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > [Price Tag of Bernie Sanders’s Proposals: $18 Trillion](http://www.wsj.com/articles/price-tag-of-bernie-sanders-proposals-18-trillion-1442271511) > > I think Bernie Sanders is a good man, and I appreciate the type of campaign he is running. He is honest and trustworthy. He is seemingly willing to discuss his proposals with more than simple soundbites. I wish there were more people like him (in terms of personality and approach to governing) in politics. > > That said, his proposals are ludicrous. It’s not hard to gain support from a section of the country when you are proposing a bunch of ridiculous give aways. Free education, free healthcare, increase social security benefits, increase wages. An increase in government spending by 10% of annual GDP? He’s going to pay for this just by increasing taxes of the evil wealthy? Raising the top tax rate to 90%+? > > His proposals are no more workable than Ron Paul’s. Health care isn’t free. Nobody expects it to be free. I want universal healthcare just like every other citizen of every other developed nation on this planet has. I want protections for workers and mandated maternity and paternity leave like every other developed nation on this planet has. I want us to stop thinking that American Exceptionalism means that America must constantly be the exception to the rule because “we’re different” and “things just won’t work here like they do in other countries.” I would much rather pay $1,000 a month in additional taxes if it means a regulated health care market, with no paperwork, no fighting insurance companies over coverage, no worrying about out of network costs, and a host of other useless things our system creates. But to get to your point, the $1,000 would be in place of the money spent with an insurance plan. Universal healthcare would increase costs to the federal government. It would increase taxes. But it would NOT NOT NOT increase overall healthcare spending on an individual level. If anything, it would decrease it significantly. That’s the key. I want healthcare to be run by the most efficient means possible: the government. It works. It works everywhere else but the USA. And Bernie Sanders gets it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/132 "2015-10-14T16:55:39Z")
If single payer was his only thing, then there’s your money: tax the middle class instead of them paying for health care. But child care, free college, increased SS benefits? Can’t do it with the revenue he’s talking about. Plus he essentially admitted he’ll blow up the deficit by saying it was a lower priority than getting Americans working. Even though unemployment is 5.1%. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/133 "2015-10-14T16:55:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s pretty much all we have. Statistics are pretty unreliable with that population for obvious reasons. > > It’s actually the easiest thing in the world to go after employers, the government just doesn’t want to. E-verify takes care of the well meaning employers and employee file audits takes care of the criminal ones. When I worked for Pizza Hut our files got audited twice a year. $10,000 for each missing document. Find a factory with 400 employees, all undocumented? That’s a cool $4 million. Bet that shuts 'em down. Most business, especially small business, are never audited. As long as they pay their taxes, they’re good for the most part. I believe, if enacted, there will be spotty compliance with E-verify by employers, especially by small businesses that shelter undocumented family member employees. My point is it is unrealistic to believe once E-verify is in place everywhere, they’ll all go home. If the only crime :dubious: they have committed is being here undocumented, they will continue to remain beneath the radar and, if necessary, find suitable and relatively safe employment. End tangent. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/134 "2015-10-14T17:05:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Bill in ineligible for the vice presidency on the grounds of being ineligible for the presidency. It won’t be Bill, but the 22nd Amendment prevents anyone from being **elected** to the office of President more than twice. It doesn’t say you can’t become President by some other avenue after having served two terms. So for purposes of the 12th Amendment, Bill **can** be VP because he’s **not** “constitutionally ineligible to the office of President.” Because being Constitutionally ineligible for election to the office =/= Constitutionally ineligible to succeed to the office. The two amendments don’t form a closed loop, especially since the authors of the 12th Amendment didn’t have the 22nd Amendment in mind. But it’s unlikely that anyone will take advantage of this loophole. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/135 "2015-10-14T17:16:28Z")
There’s also the same state problem. I realize that we expect shenanigans from Clinton, but trying to tell us that they can be husband and wife and live in different states is just stretching credibility to the breaking point. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/136 "2015-10-14T17:17:58Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It won’t be Bill, but the 22nd Amendment prevents anyone from being **elected** to the office of President more than twice. It doesn’t say you can’t become President by some other avenue after having served two terms. > > So for purposes of the 12th Amendment, Bill **can** be VP because he’s **not** “constitutionally ineligible to the office of President.” Because being Constitutionally ineligible for election to the office =/= Constitutionally ineligible to succeed to the office. > > The two amendments don’t form a closed loop, especially since the authors of the 12th Amendment didn’t have the 22nd Amendment in mind. But it’s unlikely that anyone will take advantage of this loophole. I suppose. Bill can’t be elected but that doesn’t make him ineligible to be president, he just can’t be elected. Then of course to each get NY’s electoral votes, one would have to declare residency elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/137 "2015-10-14T17:18:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Vilsack, Terry Mac, Howard Dean are my top 3 if Clinton gets the nomination. Vilsack and Terry Mac are longtime friends and supporters and ready to be President on day 1. Dean is all of those things as well plus would create the same excitement among liberals as Sanders, without the “socialist” baggage. Meh. Vilsack doesn’t have much to show for his time at USDA, Terry Mac is too slick and not as appealing as Mark Warner if you need a Virginian, and Dean is 'way past his sell-by date, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/138 "2015-10-14T17:23:34Z")
It’s the VP nomination. None are credible as people who could run for President and create excitement, but Clinton is comfortable with all three and all three add something to the ticket, as well as being qualified to be President. Clinton could go for youth and buzz, but she’s a lot like GWB in that she doesn’t really trust anyone she doesn’t know well. She has a tight inner circle. And like GWB, the likely candidates come from the Clintons’ circle of longtime political allies. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/139 "2015-10-14T17:25:43Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Clinton: The safe bet. She will not change anything, but she won’t make things worse. Funny thing: my kids (15 & 17) were watching. They liked Sanders and felt he was nuts, but honest. They thought Hillary looked like she had already been president (because of her polish), but they also were scared of her. Clever, manipulative, and effective like Saruman, only not quite as outwardly creepy/evil. I don’t see what everyone’s so mistrustful of Hillary. I don’t think she’s changed her stance on things any more than the typical politician, and certainly not more then Mitt “Etch-a-sketch” Romney or Donald “I used to be a Democrat” Trump or even John “No I’ve never been a maverick” McCain. I trust Hillary, I think she’ll do a good job. Where others see clever manipulation, I see a command of the issues and intelligent polish. Is it just a woman thing? Everyone seems to judge how she comes across but most men I’ve seen are much worse than her in demeanor. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593/140 "2015-10-14T17:29:20Z")
She changed her position on a trade agreement she supported only months ago, and cited “new” information that was not new or completely irrelevant. Not to mention, we haven’t had a President against trade agreements since Herbert Hoover. Any mainstream candidate that says they oppose a trade agreement the PResident of their party supports is a liar. Be honest, is there any doubt in your mind that Clinton is a supporter of TPP? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/13-october-2015-democratic-debate-for-commentary-during-after/734593.md?page=8)