$14 per hour: The new auto dream job

Spot on. “American” cars are immensely successful overseas. Overseas markets are and have consistently been profitable. They win awards, and sell lots. It’s important to realize that American car sales in the USA still command 50% of the market. That’s 3 companies in a total “big player” market of 20 or so companies. That’s not too bad. That’s almost owning the market. The problem is, in order to own the market and pay the bills, it has to be done profitably. If you’re only going to sell 900,000 cars per year, you’ve got to be able to size your company to profitably build 900,000 cars per year. The Americans haven’t had that luxury. Sure, $30 per hour versus $12 per hour isn’t just a drop in the bucket, but it’s not even the primary concern. It’s the ability to manage your workforce in the most efficient manner. If it means firing people, then fire them. Adding shifts, then add shifts. The American’s hands have been tied due to labor contracts that were negotiated at a time when everyone had the same labor contract. If all of the imports had to support “jobs banks” and had the type of health care that the Americans had to support and all of the other inflexible work rules, then there’d be no disparity. Maybe Toyota wouldn’t build a better car, because it’s paying 3,000 people to do nothing. Or paying 6,000 people to do that jobs that 2,000 people could do. The new hourly rate is only a tiny, tiny bit of what will make the Americans more competitive. It’s all the other flexibility in the national contracts that allow the business to be right-sized for its demand, and being right-sized is where they can be immensely profitable. More than anything, don’t forget… three companies still share 50% of the market in a field of 20 big players.

I’m going to parse this out a bit, because some things are right and some aren’t quite true. Such as the quoted statement. Essentially all of the unskilled jobs (we call them “production jobs”) in a factory are simple, repetitive tasks that either (a) automation can’t handle, or (b) labor contracts won’t support elimination of. Body shops still depend on people to unload racks and load machines, and unload machines and load racks. Final assembly, though, requires a lot of dexterity that robots can’t necessarily handle. This isn’t to say that there are skills involved; there aren’t. It’s pretty much as Rick describes above.

Ah, but now we’re talking about skilled labor. One of the most important parts of my job is MTTR/MTBR so that we can not require as much skilled labor. These are talented guys, for the most part. Unfortunately union contracts almost universally favor seniority over any degree of capacity, so in eliminating jobs, we lose the young guys that are motivated and want to learn, and are stuck with the bitter old guys that still want to work with relay networks and ignitron tubes. As a consequence, what could take a talented person 40 hours of training to learn, often doesn’t get accomplished in any number of hours. There’s also no flexibility in jobs. For example to service a spot welding gun, you often need two hours for three different classes of skilled trades to effect a repair that any one of those guys could do in 10 minutes. Of course due to the learning curve, it’s often quicker to call in the vendor, and assign the trades to do absolutely nothing but watch. You see, they watch rather than get another job, because per the labor rules, the vendor is doing their job, and as such they’re entitled to do nothing while the vendor is effecting the repair!

This is mostly correct. Consider, though, that the union often doesn’t want people to change jobs and rotate and vary their day, because it would decrease the demand for labor. We try and try and try to have self-directed, cross-trained workgroups, but it’s the unskilled labor that resists us. They just want to do the same thing every day, all day. As I said, there are still some jobs we could eliminate with automation, but sometimes we’re prohibited from doing so. And again, it’s not purely the worker wages that’s at issue. Another example is the issue of worker classification. You know that GM/Chrysler now have the option to pay “non-core” jobs at the $14 per hour, up to a maximum 20% of the hourly workforce. Ford has 20%, regardless of classification. The idea here is to do things cheaply. For example, a $25 per hour worker can “bid into” a better job, such as cleaning the bathrooms. WTF? Why are we paying $25 per hour for substandard bathroom cleaning?

ASAKMOTSD, I appreciate the no-beef. I see that you’ve been there and done that. I’m still there, though, and Rick’s previous description is still pretty much spot on for the US manufacturers. I see, though, that you mean in reference to alienating potential customers, but I just don’t see that math working out. If we fire 100,000 people, that’s only 100,000 potential lost customers? And with buyouts, of course, they’re not really disaffected and continue to receive their employee purchase plans.

I’d say that your other premise is flawed:

I’d say that some of the savings in labor costs will certainly be reflected in the prices of the cars. That would have a positive effect on sales. The idea that needlessly high labor costs are good for the consumer is a bit insane. Good for the workers, but not for the customers.

So you ask for opinions, and I give you two actual jobs from the factories I have visited. You come nothing other that a jab at me. :rolleyes:
Before you reply you might want to read what Bathisar wrote. It seems he pretty much backs up my points.

The very first factory visit I made to a factory was with the technical training instructors from the US. Between us we had well over 300 years of automotive repair experience (not bad for 15 guys) Anyway after the tour, we were in agreement on two things. First we were blown away at how cool the entire process was. Secondly and more importantly to this discussion we were collectively surprised with just how little skill it takes to build a car. Especially when compared to the skills necessary to repair one.
Many, many of the jobs that used to be serious skill jobs in the factory are now done by computer and robot. Adjusting doors, adjusting hoods, doors, door latches, welding (90%+ robot), engine assembly, transmission assembly, and painting are all either 100% robotic or a huge percentage robotic.

In my last post I said this:
As several different models are built on the same assembly line the various pieces and sizes of glass are aligned up in a rack in the order of the cars coming down the assembly line.*
I then forgot to fill in the * at the bottom, so I will do that now.
*The guys who’s skills blow me away, and are worth what they are being paid and probably more are the guys that design, program and maintain the robots that build these cars. That and the guys that set up and operate the just in time parts ordering system. The robot needs to install the glass into an XC90? the next piece of glass in the rack is for an XC90. The car after that is an S80? the next piece of glass is for an S80. furthermore the robot knows just how to move to apply the adhesive correctly and just where to place the glass so that it fits the car perfectly.
the entire just in time process is nothing short of amazing. A few weeks before the cars are run down the line, parts are ordered from suppliers to be delivered on a particular day in a precise order. so what when the robot turns around to grab a graphic colored front seat for an V70, it gets a graphic colored seat for a V70. Nothing short of amazing to watch.
A far as the amount of labor goes I have been told that many years ago it took between 60 and 70 man hours to build a Volvo. The time now is less than 26 man hours. some of the Asian makes are building some model cars in the 16-20 man hour range.
Yeah the labor is a lot less, but still a chunk of money. And not a reason to pay twice what it is worth.

Nope, not a typo. I didn’t pay that much, but at current prices that is the replacement cost.
For example here is a pretty close approximation of my tool box. $8,200.
Here one piece of diagnostic gear I own. $2,500 plus accessories.
Here is one of my impacts, $350. I have several others, along with air ratchets, air drills, die grinders, air chisels, etc.
You don’t even want to know what professional grade sockets, wrenches and screwdrivers go for.
If my garage ever burns down, State Farm is so screwed.

Over $8 grand for a frigging tool box? That’s flat out ridiculous. Time to buy some peg boards.

First off I don’t have enough free wall space in my garage to hang up as many tools as I own. Secondly in a shop environment, I guarantee there isn’t enough space, and secondly there is zero security with peg boards. I can lock my tool box.

But it still has wheels. You should bolt it down.

Unless, of course, you have it filled to the 6,000 lb capacity.

I was mostly joking about the peg boards, but $8000 seems excessive. Like you have the Monster Cables version of a toolbox.

Check out page 1 of this PDF Need a place to park your dump truck? How about on top of some tool boxes? :slight_smile:
With a professional grade tool box, you might outgrow it, but you won’t ever wear it out. My existing box is going on 20 years old now. The paint is a bit faded, and I really do need to lube the drawer slides, but the box itself is still hanging in there.
Dag Otto The last three times I had to move my box, I rented a truck and trailer. My Volvo only had a 3,500 lb towing capacity. I once had to move stalls at a dealership. I went in on Saturday so I could get the move done without losing valuable work time. I had to push my box over a speed bump. It took me about 10 minutes of straining to get my box over that damn speed bump. I was afraid that I would get one end over, and then not be able to get the other end over.

Sounds like a little less fun than changing forklift batteries.

I am the child of UAW members. I have also done my time in the supply chain for GM (mid-80s to mid-90s).

I got an awakening the first time that I went to the BOC plant, formerly of Flint, MI. The folks on the assembly line had it very leisurely compared to the ones in the non-union supply plants. Some of them even had portable tvs at their work stations to keep up with their shows.

Even though I held a semi-skilled position (quality assurance lead - required skills like blueprint reading,using calipers and mics, testing equipment, etc), I made roughly half of what an assembly worker did there. Even in my current job (mid-level administrative), I make about $10K a year less than the assembly workers down the street at Nissan or the GM workers in Spring Hill. And my benefits cost me considerably more.

To answer Trunk, my income is sustainable enough for me to purchase a new, economy priced vehicle every 5-6 years. A 2 income household at the $14 p/h, $29K p/y and good health coverage would produce a similar overall market amongst auto workers.

To sum it up, in Detroit’s glory days, wages and benefits became over inflated. We are now dealing with the difficult task of correcting the market. I will always be grateful for the financial oppurtunities that they offered my family, but it was not an economically sustainable model for the long term.

Oh, and Rick, your toolbox story gave me a chuckle, because it reminded me of my dad when he retired (he was a machine repairman in a machine shop in the auto industry). It took 3 trips in an F250 with a hydrolic end gate to get all of his tools home. :slight_smile:

But the overseas products of the Detroit 3 aren’t developed or built in Detroit. Opel/Vauxhall/Saab, for example do their R&D and design in Germany, Sweden and Britain; sometimes they share major components with the US GM family - platforms, engines and such - but these components are as likely Euro-designed as US-designed.

I was talking about US-designed and -built products, like the smattering of Cadillacs and Chevrolets (aside from the rebadged Korean ones) currently being sold in Europe.

In the rest of the world, the Civic outsells the Accord (as the Corolla outsells the Camry), but the Accord (and Camry) are still among the top 10 models worldwide by volume.

The same goes for “giant gas-guzzling SUVs” - they don’t have quite the same market share worldwide that they do here, but plenty of people still want them. The Mitsubishi Pajero/Shogun/Montero, Toyota Landcruiser, various Land Rovers and so on are all staples in lots of places. Pickup trucks hardly sell outside the US, but that’s because outside the US they’re not personal transport; they’re commercial vehicles. I don’t know if the rest of the world just has fewer lawn services or what but I’d never met anyone who would choose a pickup as a personal vehicle before I moved here.

The American car known as the Honda Accord isn’t sold widely anywhere other than North America and (recently) China. The “Honda Accord” sold in the rest of the world is sold in North America/China as the “Acura TSX”, in a somewhat different configuration - the North American TSX does not have the All Wheel Drive system available in the Japanese Accord, for example. Most North Americans have little interest in that particular car, as it is about the same size as a North American Civic, with a similar engine and drive train and yet costs a great deal more. It would be difficult to reasonably say that these two cars are the same. You could say the same thing about the Camry, although I’m not as familiar with that particular lineup since Toyota has so many cars which use that name.

4x4 vehicles are popular in certain parts of the world because they are the only form of transport suitable for the terrain. This is the exception rather than the rule. The popularity of JAPANESE 4x4s stems not just from being generally reliable, but more from Japan’s quirky vehicle inspection regime that makes ownership of vehicles older than a few years an expensive affair. There is a large global trade in moving used Japanese vehicles to countries with lax import regulations, many third world, but certainly British or Australian dopers will know exactly what I’m talking about as well.

The global Accord and US version use the same platform and engines. The global Accord is very slightly shorter and narrower than the North American Accord, but still much bigger than the Civic. Have you not seen a TSX? It’s a medium-sized four door sedan that looks pretty much like Accord.

New Zealander or Australian dopers, yes. The UK grey import market for Japanese vehicles is tiny.

4x4 vehicles are popular all over the world among people who will never put a wheel off-road. Very little to do with suitability for the terrain; they are ubiquitous in the Middle East, for example, despite the fact that the roads are superb.

In any case, the popularity of Japanese 4x4s is much greater than you could ever account for through the grey export market - because they’re not just exporting used SUVs, they’re exporting everything.

shudders at the memory of ten years spent working in warehouses, changing 3000 pound forklift batteries full of sulfuric acid :eek: :frowning:

You’re right of course, but my understanding was that you meant that American designs weren’t well-received overseas, but as you said yourself, that’s because there’s no exposure other than niche vehicles. There’ve been different designs for regional markets for decades and decades. It’s only within the last decade that there’s been a huge drive to try to leverage global designs. There’ve been early test cases here and there (e.g., the Ford Contour / Ford Modeo). This reduces a huge amount of redundancy, and eases up the supply chain. You can still tailor to the local markets by changing trim, tophat details, chassis configurations for the various markets.

The Mazda 3 / Ford Focus C-Max / Volvo S40/V50/C70 is a good example of this.

I have indeed seen a TSX. I can even look up its’ dimensions, which are thus:

Wheelbase 105.1 in (2670 mm)
Length 183.3 in (4656 mm)
Width 69.4 in (1763 mm)

Compared to the Civic:
Wheelbase
106.3 in (270 cm) (sedan)
Length
176.7 in (447 cm) (sedan)
Width
69.0 in (175 cm) (sedan)

And the Accord:
Wheelbase Sedan: 110.2 in (2799 mm)
Length Sedan: 194.1 in (4930 mm)
V6 Sedan: 194.3 in (4935 mm)
Width Sedan: 72.7 in (1847 mm)

I would say the TSX is much closer to the Civic than it is to the North American Accord, which is actually the biggest car Honda makes, slightly larger than the outgoing Acura RL/Honda Legend.

If you want to consider it from another angle, European “executive cars” like the BMW 3 series and Mercedes C-class, would be considered compact cars in the US - they are the same size as a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla.

AMERICAN (or Australian) SUVs and cars are also fairly common in the Middle East. What I meant was that Japanese 4x4s are more commonly seen in third world countries because of their relative abundance on the global market for used vehicles.

Shit, GM could probably give all their employees a free car and still be ahead with this kind of pay-cut, but that’s not the issue.
They’ll probably cause a ripple in similar industries, but Japan started it wayyyy back when Toyotas first started becoming cheap and reliable. It’s a market correction, without which, we’d all be in more trouble in the long run.