$145 billion award?

If a judgement that breaks the major tobacco companies is allowed to stand and collection is pursued, it seems a couple of scenarios might develop.

One possibility is that the defendants’ assets will be seized when it becomes clear they cannot produce the cash. The trustees who will take control of these assets will have a fiduciary responsiblity to the plaintiffs to preserve the maximum value of the assets; the way to do that best will be to operate those assets as a profitable, producing tobacco company, at least until they can be sold.

A second scenario I can easily envision is the economic powers that be responding to the persistent market demand for tobacco products. If R.J. Reynolds et al disappear, there’s money to be made by other, new entities that won’t have to deal with any historical record of past statements. Perhaps they’ll be the ones to purchase the assets of the current companies.

Part of this whole story involves the delightful fiction at it’s core. I don’t for a minute believe that there are 700,000 hoodwinked consumers out there who merrily puffed away, secure in their knowledge that Big Smoke had assured them that cigarettes were non-habituating little treats with no adverse health effects. I don’t believe I’ve ever met anyone, smoker or not, above the age of, say, four who thought cigarettes were not habit forming and less than great for your health.

Accepted. the tobacco companies business practices have been bad. Their morals have been loathsome.

Let me list a few other widely accepted companies who, today are well thought of, but began their business with blood and abuse.

Any rail road. They killed any Indian nation standing in their way or had the army do it. They burned, bought and murdered landowners who were in their path. They worked hundreds of people to death. After being established, they had a train wreck a day for ages, being unwilling to improve safety conditions. Hundreds of thousands died.

Ford motor company. They sold thousands of models of cars with dangerous design flaws but made no recalls years ago, because of costs.

Coal mines killed thousands either quickly or slowly because the owners did not want to provide fresh air, fire safety, adequate lighting or dust protection for the miners, whom they paid cheaply and virtually owned. That cost money. The ‘Company Store’ came from such places. miners lived in company housing, bought goods from the company store and worked in the company mine. The prices in the store was set to the average pay so that the miner, often running on a ‘chit’ rarely knew his pay. The store and company made sure he never managed to break even. Black lung is a hideous disease.

Steel mills. They polluted the air, the water, killed men, and their smoke and vapors poisoned lands and watersheds hundreds of miles away. The owners declined to use safer and more pollution free ways until the EPA and unions got involved.

The canning industry. For ages they sealed the tine cans of food with lead solder and gave lead poisoning to many. It was not until about 30 years ago that they were forced to change.

The toy industry. They used to make tin toys with razor sharp edges that one assembled. (I had a gas station.) They made toys with polluted water in them, mildly toxic jells, small, sharp bits and lead paint. They knew this but did not change until the government got involved and passed laws.

Lead pipes and solder. There are still houses with these in them. The industry knew about lead poisoning but few wanted to change their suppliers. (PVC pipe is used now, or copper with silver solder. You know, that glue used on PVC pipe is deadly. Most plumbers really slather that stuff on and if you run your taps in a newly plumbed house, you take the tap screens off because hardened globs of the stuff will flow out. What about the globs that sit and soak in the water you will later drink?)

Herbal medicines. Unregulated. Some of the stuff contains toxic levels of the herbs or are mixed with similar, but not the same, herbs, which can be poison. Gingko Bilboa: makes you smart. Does it? It thins the blood, enabling more oxygen to get to your brain. However, if you are already taking an anticoagulant or large doses of aspirin, it’s not wise to use Gingko – but there is no warning on the bottle.

Gasoline. Any form. The vapors when filling your tank are harmful. (Some cities have installed recovery systems at the pump.) Gas station attendants used to pump the stuff – in the days of full service – not knowing that exposure to the fumes and liquid would ulcerate the skin. The fuel companies knew this.

Most major banks. They might not have directly killed anyone, but they certainly ruined thousands as they manipulated interest rates, called in loans they could have let ride, snatched up property and practiced illegal business in order to become powerful, virtual monopolies. (Barnett Bank comes to mind.)

The creators of the first life prolonging AIDS medication. $100 a pop. You need it, you come up with the cash. No cash, then die.

Most motion picture companies. They’ll make a person a star. Work them hard until they loose either popularity or energy and then unceremoniously dump them. (The Three Stooges were locked out of the lot without even getting time to get their stuff after years of hard, physical performances for their company. One day they were employed and well thought of, the next, they were fired. It’s happened time and time again and no one does anything.)

The News Media. Sensationalism and hype. Points count instead of fact. They can make or break a person. They are responsible for the insane hysteria starting over day care child abuse, which spread all over and even to teachers. (The initial case, which started it all, was wrong.) Lives were ruined by the score.

Your local government. Ft. Lauderdale Florida, some years ago, was creamed by hurricane Andrew. When the dust settled, the news folks had been paid off, and the devastation shown, only 14 people were reported as having died. A friend of mine in the national guard who went there said he had to keep guard on a warehouse stacked with bodies. No one was to be allowed in. He estimated that at least 2000 died. The local government did not want tourists getting scared and not stopping by in the future hurricane seasons because they need the money. So they lied. The media knew and went along with it. It’s OK if tourists get splattered in the next hurricane just so long as they leave their money behind.

Mercury. They’ve known for ages is poisonous, but not only were there science experiments on how to turn a penny silver (dip it in mercury) but no one suggested the use of gloves when handling the stuff. Not to mention the logging industry which used tons of it to strip bark off of trees. (How that works, I don’t know.) and dumped it into lakes where it still lurks today, in the muck. No one has sued them to clean it up. It steadily poisons the water and fish.

There’s more, but I can’t think of them right now. The tobacco companies are not the only ones who willingly sold harmful things to the public.

Food for thought: Aluminum has been implicated as a possible contributor/cause of Alzheimer’s disease. You cook in aluminum pots. Those cheap ones, as they grow old, shed aluminum into your food. Even good Club aluminum sheds. (Wipe one out with a damp paper towel and look at what you get.) How much aluminum are you eating daily? Teflon. When DuPont made it, the stuff was thickly applied to pots. Once everyone else could use it, the coating became thin. How many of you have pots with the Teflon coating wearing off? How much Teflon are you consuming? Will it eventually hurt you?

Do you have pewter cups, plates, glass bottomed mugs you like to use? Quaff a beer from ye oldie Beer pewter mug and peer through the bottom? Then, you’re slowly poisoning yourself. Pewter is a mix of lead and tin. The lead bleeds into the food.

Got some nice, cheap, pretty imported glaze wear? Like to use it to eat off of? Do you know if the pretty colors have lead in them? Did the little sticker on each that you ignored say for display only? Lead based underglaze can bleed lead through the lightly covered clear glaze. Stores know this but the stuff sells well. They get by the lead warning by applying a sticker that says ‘for display use only,’ not caring that many people will wash off the sticker, probably not even reading it, and use the plates. They don’t care if you poison yourself, just so long as you buy the plates from them.

Basically, the tobacco industry is being used as a pariah. The lawyers will get 40% of the settlement. Only the lawyers will profit from this mess. However, all of us, smokers and nonsmokers alike, will pay for it because a precidence has been set.

Wait for it. Eventually they’ll get around to something you like to do, like guns, booze, herbs, gasoline, or whatever and then, you’ll pay, and pay and pay.

Oh, yeah. I forgot.

Concerning the tobacco companies increasing the addictive power of the stuff.

Coke did that with cocaine. You used to buy a coke, and the soda jerk would tip in a bit of cocaine for you. (That way, coke can say it never put the stuff in it’s drinks.)

Paregoric was a great pain killer, being opium based, but addictive. You used to buy it across the counter. It became illegal in the 60s.

Over the counter aspirin is being suspected of being addictive in some way. It is known that if one uses a lot of it, it can actually generate a headache, for which one takes more aspirin.

Caffeine is believed to be mildly addicting, so you all ‘caffe’ drinkers go and spend $2 for hot steam blasted through a compacted mass of beans that just about vibrate on their own and drink the concentrated liquid. Cup after cup. Beans are grown for flavor and caffeine content. After two or three of those itty bitty nuclear cups, you vibrate your way out into the street and blast on with your lives, craving more when the low hits and you crash.

Tobacco is not alone in trying to get people addicted to their product to increase sales.

PRISM02 wrote:

Cecil Adams has written no less than three articles on the alleged link between aluminum and Alzheimer’s disease. Here’s his most recent: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/971219.html

Was that a brain fart? ::sniff sniff:: No, wait, it’s Prism02!

I like all your comparisons of cigarrettes to steel mills and airplanes. However, as has been pointed out… it’s not the same thing.

Ford- They knew the Pinto had a PROBABILITY of being dangerous (they couldn’t know for sure until they actually got the thing on the road). They prepared contingency plans in case their fears were realized. Horrible, yes, but not as horrible as people dying in a burning wreckage and Ford saying “They didn’t die in a burning wreckage.”

Your example of Coke doesn’t work, because there hasn’t been a trace of cocaine in Coca-Cola for decades.

Aspirin and Paregoric are MEDICINES, jackass. What medicinal value does a cigarette have? And aspirin being SUSPECTED of being addictive is a lot different than nicotine being KNOWN to be addicted.

Caffeine IS addictive, yes, but last I heard, millions of people haven’t died from a cup of joe. In addition, nobody pretends that caffeine isn’t addictive.

The railroad companies… I’m sorry, but we’ll have to see some evidence for those claims. “they had a train wreck a day for ages”? “Hundreds of thousands died.”? Hard to swallow without something backing that up. That’s like saying “We had a black plague, and nobody noticed”.

And they got burned BIG TIME for it.

I can go on, but pointing out the flawed reasoning in all of your claims is too much of a headache for me.

I’ll lay it out real simple for your teensy-weensy little brain… cigarettes are addictive, they’re dangerous, and they provide no health benefits whatsoever. And the dangers were kept from the public. What other manufacturer has done that WITHOUT PAYING THE PRICE? None.

A militant antismoker checking in…

Disjoined thought #1:
I have spent the last 20 years arguing with smokers who said “it has not been proven smoking is bad for you” (some people still say it!). IMHO if you did not know smoking was bad for you it was because you preferred not to know and now don’t come crying.

This is a clear case of people wanting to blame others for the consequences of their own actions. It is similar to the USA blaming Mexico and Colombia for producing drugs. Come on! If you would not buy drugs nobody would produce them! The reason drugs are produced and sold is because drugs are bought. I have no sympathy for drug addicts who blame others or for smokers who get sick from what they should have known would make them sick.

Disjoined thought #2
The jury is an institution which should probably be much less used if at all. It may have served its purpose in medieval England to prevent abuses by the lords but I don’t see it as so necessary today, at least in civil cases.

Having judges decide cases means at least you have someone with a certain level of education. In many cases the people on juries are just the most ignorant. I remember seeing some jurors interviewed on TV from a couple of prominent trials, Marion Barry and Oliver North and, man, you cannot begin to imagine … Of course, if you have killed someone maybe you like this system (ask OJ).

Disjoined thought #3
The concept of “punitive damages” should probably de abolished. AFAIK it exists only in countries with the English system of law and, to me, it makes no sense. Compensatory damages (which exist everywhere) are supposed to compensate the other party for the damages suffered. But why should an individual get the benefit of a penalty? In every other country the penalties, which are punishment meant to discourage certain conducts, go to the state. I believe that is the way it should be because this system just encourages litigation.

A punitive assessment should be the subject to a criminal trial with all the safeguards it entails and the penalty should go to the state, not the individual.

disjoined thought #4: I am running out of disjoined thoughts…

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What you’ve said has no merit. I don’t doubt that the media can mess up numbers but they wouldn’t miss it by 2,000. Show us some evidence that this is true.

Marc

Yes, what is the evidence of such a coverup by the government. Wouldn’t there be about 2000 families wondering where there relatives went back in 1992?
That story just doesn’t add up and the source (a buddy in the National Guard) doesn’t hold water.
In turn this casts doubt on everything else you’ve said.

I do not think he meant any of that literally. Just a rant.

Here we are, having a pleasant discussion involving the justice/merits of the massive award levied against the tobacco companies, with each happily inserting his or her own opinion with no rancor or hostility.

Then along comes the walking rectum, SPOOFE Bo Diddly, who has to open his fetid mouth and spew forth fecal material on the entire thread. Your mother never knew your father. You suck on the sexual organs of males.

I know the threads of Cecil, but he is not infallible and the potential links are still being looked into. The human body does not normally contain much aluminum. Aluminum is consumed through most city water supplies, through cheap pots and pans and the effects are not yet completely known. Aluminum is not used in surgery - like in the form of plates, and screws. I, for one, stopped using aluminum cookware years ago. Copper and steel for me.

Now, feces for brains, in the initial posts, I never stated I was defending the tobacco companies. I am mainly concerned about the massive award setting a precedent, which will be abused.

What part of that did not get through that cesspool of a brain you think you have?

I was around and working when lawsuits started hitting the doctors. I saw the precedent set. Before then, one never sued a doctor, of if one did, it had to be over something major – like removing the wrong leg. Not because he gave one a medication that made you ill because you were one of the 2% that it might do that to. I was around when the major suits started hitting hospitals, then suddenly the drug companies were hit, followed by the people who make medical supplies. Juries started awarding outrageous sums. So much that the medical profession has petitioned congress several times to put cap limits on settlements.

I watched office fees go fro $10 to $50. Hospital rooms jump from $30 a day to $300. Emergency rooms which used to treat anyone suddenly became afraid of being sued and started turning people away if they were too young or could not pay. OBGYN doctors never used to require the expectant family to pay 50% of his bill up front. Parents did not usually sue an OBGYN if the baby came out slightly deformed because of some medication they had been given. It was understood that some medications had side effects and these things happen and that the doctor had done his best.

Railroads: Less than a month ago they had a program on the Learning Channel concerning the rails and train safety and covered everything I said. With no accurate time tables (this was before the rail roads standardized time) two trains frequently crashed into each other, plus they used coal burning stoves for heat, unshielded. Look it up yourself.

Ford may have gotten burned big time for their cars but the whole point of the thing is that they did it deliberately, which was the whole point I was making. Other industries have screwed us and have paid, some have not. Other industries are still screwing us and have not been caught yet.

Got that, urine-for-brains?

Now, what part of this do you not understand?

(A) I’m concerned about the size of the award.
(B) I’m concerned about a precedent which will start a trend.
© I’m concerned about what, in the long run, or how much, all of us are going to eventually have to pay.

Do you understand this? Should I write it in crayon?

Imbecile. (Jerk-off!!)

A) Why do you care how much tobacco companies have to pay in legal costs?
B) What other industry has killed as many millions of people world wide as the tobacco industry? (FYI, my Croatian friend tells me that American cigarettes are the favorites in Europe, whenever he goes home he brings a carton of Marlboros, so it isn’t just Americans they’re killing). All the other industries you mentioned, if put together, could not compete with the overall damage tobacco has done. Thus, there will never be a judgement like this one again, except for more tobacco settlements.
C) If you don’t smoke, or stop smoking now, then the costs of this jury award will never be passed on to you. If you continue to smoke then you deserve to pay and pay and pay.

My original question remains, if the whole tobacco industry is driven into bankruptcy and tobacco is forever banned, then what harm will this do to America?

ROTFLMAO

I’m sorry, did you intend for that post to be funny? In my mind it brings up an image of a long-haired pot dealer talking with a few underage customers:
kids: “Yo, dude, you got any weed?”
dealer: “No man, I’m all out, but try this.”
kids: “What is it?”
dealer: “It’s tobacco, dude.”
kids: “Woh, you got leaf?”
dealer: “Yeah man, this stuff is killer, they grew it in a secret government lab to give it extra nicotine. I mean, this shit left its parents on Krypton. Here kids, try some.”
-each kid takes a long drag-
kids: “Cool, I can feel it increasing my heart rate and blood pressure, giving me a very slight feeling of euphoria. This stuff is bitchin! How much for the whole pack?”
dealer: “It’s 10 bucks a stick, dude.”
kids: “All we got is eighty bucks, stay here, we’ll go rob a convenience store.”

Lib, is this the image you were trying to convey?

SarumanRex wrote:

What harm? How about creating a black market for tobacco, because it’s so addictive smokers won’t be able to quit? How about drug lords selling cigarettes on the street for $5 each, with NO regulatory controls as to what age group they sell them to or what other “additives” are in the cigarettes alongside the tobacco? How about yet more local and national police being taken off of real criminal cases so that they can arrest more “illegal tobacco users”?

Sheesh. Don’t they teach you kids about Prohibition in school anymore?

This is the result of bad education. Why didn’t they just say some other crazy number. How about 145 trillion-zillion dollars?

Unlike tobacco, alcohol has some beneficial side effects if used in moderation, it has been part of our culture for at least 6,000 years, anybody can make it in their kitchen, and (most importantly) it has a tremendous narcotic effect that many people seem to enjoy (i.e. everything from a slight buzz to falling down drunk). There is no comparison between alcohol and tobacco. Any illegal drug that doesn’t give a big kick will be pushed out by those that do. That is, if marijuana and tobacco are both illegal, who is going to choose tobacco over pot. When I say illegal, I mean illegal to buy, sell, possess, or consume. It was never illegal to consume alcohol during prohibition, only to ship it and sell it. Who would buy/sell cigarettes when they could buy/sell weed with the same penalties. You have a point that current nicotine addicts would pay big bucks for more smokes, but is that any excuse for continuing to sell and advertise tobacco products legally. To minimize the black market the gov’t could sell cigarettes to anyone who applied for a prescription before they became illegal. And FYI, kids can get cigarettes right now so don’t try to use that tired old BS that making something illegal somehow makes it more available to kids. By that argument we should legalize heroin.

SarumanRex

Did I stutter somewhere in my statements?

Establishing a precedence!

In short, since it has been established that this can be done and the potential for great rewards is high, so shall it be done again, but to other industries making other products and the goal will be for rewards in the billions.

The first kid to sue his parents established a precedence and opened up the way for the confusing hell that they call children’s rights -which often surpass parental rights.

The first person to slip and fall in a department store and sue opened up the way for hundreds to do the same plus thousands more to fake slipping to get the large rewards displayed by the original precedent. We now pay higher prices – far above normal inflation – for the costs of fighting those lawsuits.

It doesn’t really matter that tobacco is habit forming, what matters is the settlement. Like one poster said, the gun makers will be next because they knew their product kills people but pushed it anyhow. Then the ammunition makers – after all they knew their product could kill people but they continued an advertising campaign to push it. Booze makers might be next because they knew that not only is their product liable to make people kill others but, for a large chunk of the population, it is addicting. Yet they made drinking look sexy, glorious and fun.

Those of us who use those products will have to pay increased prices if such suits go through for billions in settlements.

See what I mean? It’s not about the tobacco company, but the idiocy of the jury in awarding such enormous settlements.

Plus, people will smoke. Make smoking illegal in the US and the tobacco companies will sell their product over seas, and that product, with even less controls, will come back via the mob for smokers. It would have been wiser to force the companies to develop a safer smoke and pay X millions into cancer research and treatments.

Prohibition tried to stop the US from drinking. It failed miserably and the mob got rich, along with people like the Rockefellers, thousands died from crime and bad booze and it was repealed.

**

However in this country the harm caused by alcohol abusers outweighs the benefits of using alcohol.

**

And tobacco has been a part of our culture for over 400 years. It was one of the crops used to build this country, it was used as currency in some states, and is ingrained into our culture every bit as much as alcohol. How many saloons did you see that didn’t have tobacco smokers?

**

Tobacco must do something for people otherwise they wouldn’t smoke.

**

Who would choose marijuana when they can choose heroin, coke, or crank?

**

According to the 18th Amendment that’s right. Are you sure there were no state or local laws prohibiting the consuming of alcohol? I have no idea to be honest.

**

Because it is their drug of choice.

**

There doesn’t need to be any “excuse.” If people wish to poison themselves who am I to get in their way?

**

We should do that with heroin and cocaine right now.

**

I’ve had teenagers ask me to take their cash and purchase them some smokes at the local 7-11. So yeah it is probably slightly more difficult for them to get their hands on tobacco then it is other drugs. I’ve never had one ask me to purchase them a little pot or heroin.

Making it illegal hasn’t kept it out of their hands. Perhaps some sort of perscription system would be a good idea.

Marc

Spoofe said:

PRISM002 said:

[Moderator Hat ON]

All right, that is quite enough from both of you. Confine any further flames to the Pit, or I’ll toss the entire thread there. Got it? You have completely exhaused my limited supply of patience already.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

MGibson wrote:

The 18th Amendment also made it illegal to manufacture alcohol.

Quote:
“cigarettes are addictive, they’re dangerous, and they provide no health benefits whatsoever. And the dangers were kept from the public. What other manufacturer has done that WITHOUT PAYING THE PRICE? None.”

Actually there is another industry. The meat industry. Meat is addictive, dangerous (causes obesity, heart deasease), and causes no health benefits whatsoever (when overused). McDonalds is probably the biggest killer of American males indirectly, and they’ve done that without paying the price!
YES, Prism02, you’ve gotten the point I’m trying to make. The precedent. The awards are ridiculous and are pretty much made by people who have no idea what they are doing. And in this country you can get sued for anything. No one takes responsibility for anything anymore. It’s just SUE this SUE that. We’ve become a nation of idiots, and it’s all the lawyers’ fault.