I see… So developing some fairly simple get-the-job-done mobile technology is really hard or constrained by some mythical gesture/trust/interaction whatevers (where is the evidence that there is any sort of “trust” in the first place between the occupying forces and the locals, btw? why do you need any “trust” to go snitch on the local al qaedah or racketeer gang?). People who were lucky enough to learn Arabic as first language while being a citizen apparently are worth comparable amount of money to navy seals, fighter pilots or other such folks who took massive amount of money to train. 6 figure salaries are chump change for government contractors amidst the budget crisis and collapsing economy.
Well, folks, and then people wonder where the Tea Party is coming from. And why not everybody believes the notion that the American government is competent and wisely spends the taxpayers’ money.
People with actual experience in the area, and with actual background in the setting, have answered your supposed original question. The fact that you don’t want to see the answers as valid indicates that you posted your OP in the wrong forum. You should ask a mod to move this thread to “Great Debates” so you can post your anti-government rant more honestly.
Yes. This is what the invisible hand of Adam Smith has wrought. Because a sufficient number of good Arabic translators willing to work in a war zone are actually harder to come by than fighter pilots. This is pure capitalism at work - scarcity of skill sets = higher wages.
Dude, it’s not just being “lucky enough to learn Arabic as a first language”. You also need a security clearance. And that’s a massive hurdle to leap, especially with that “Arabic is my first language” thing.
If you think you can find people who speak fluent Arabic and hold security clearances and are willing to spend a year in Iraq for minimum wage, well, it turns out that you can’t, and the evidence that you can’t is right there in that craigslist ad.
Yeah, you can send 18 year old soldiers to Iraq and pay them shit wages. Those guys don’t speak Arabic. So now what? Do without translators? Well, fine, except how the fuck are we supposed to pacify Iraq if nobody can talk to the Iraqis?
It’s expensive to invade, conquer, occupy and pacify a hostile country. If we didn’t want to spend what it takes, maybe we shouldn’t have invaded them in the first place. Or we could just give up and come home now if it’s costing us too much. I don’t know what the people who complain all the time about the cost of government will say about the notion of cutting and running from Iraq, though.
Nah, it’s pretty easy to see that it’s coming from people who feel quite certain in their concept of things they have no real knowledge of and who dismiss explanations from those who know what they’re talking about if it doesn’t fit their preconceived notions of how it ought to be.
Translation is not a technological problem. It’s a human relations problem.
Translation is not just being able to turn words from one language into another language. It’s persuading someone to say anything in the first place; it’s persuading someone to say something relevant, something that it might be dangerous for him or her to say; it’s persuading someone to tell the truth, perhaps against his or her perceived interest.
People are complicated. People living in a stressful environment are even more complicated. Getting valuable information from human beings is not like querying a database, which can be done by any pimply-faced geek. It’s about establishing relationships; it’s about understanding culture and history and emotions.
You fundamentally misunderstand what human communication is – you misunderstand what language is. It’s not about being able to convert words from one language to another. Babelfish can’t convey meaning in a realistic human setting. Japanese people use “yes” to mean “yes,” “no,” and “maybe,” among other things. And then there’s tone, and body language, and gestures, and sarcasm, and jokes, and lying.
The ability to do this in a dangerous, violent environment is a valuable skill, and it is one that is difficult to teach, not unlike the difficulty in training a specialized combatant. And these translators can be a critical determinant in whether a Navy Seal or a fighter pilot accomplishes a mission or fails, lives or dies.
Yes, you’re exactly right. The Tea Party is full of ignorant know-it-alls who think they know a lot more about the world than they really do.
What does the tea party have to do with anything? Have you ever dealt with an interpreter or tried to do any yourself. Even if you speak the language correctly and can understand what is being said, being able to provide a simultaneous interpretation is still difficult. Intrepreting is a skill, and you can either do it or you can’t. Look at the salaries being offered for Spanish to English interpreters in pulykamell’s link. Those run in up to $90,000.00. There are a hell of a lot more Spanish speakers than there are Arabic speakers.
Have you used Skype or one of it’s competitors. The connection can be fuzzy and if you are using video conferencing there is a delay which makes it difficult to really catch body language.
As others have said, there’s a huge difference between being bilingual and being a translator/interpreter. Translation and interpretation are very specific skills. Knowing both languages is a prerequisite, but it’s far from being sufficient.
I’m bilingual, so I can explain my intentions and opinions in either language. But I can’t just hear someone else’s comment in one language and spit it out instantly in another. I’d have to understand it, then switch my mind around, then try to communicate that understanding in the other language. It’s hard enough when I try to do it between colleagues from both countries, or between my parents and my in-laws, let alone strangers.
I assumed that the OP wasn’t suggesting machine translation, but rather having an interpreter on the other side translating/interpreting in real-time from a remote location.
Out of interest does this supposed system of highly reliable mobile phone based video conferencing even work well in developed countries? Seriously I had video calls on an old mobile and it was crappy. Do you truly think that you have the information available to say a technological solution is easy?
Off the top of my head, and in no particular order, you’d need to consider:
. Coverage of the Iraqi phone network
. Average speed of the Iraqi phone network (video takes up a lot of bandwith)
. Reliability of complex hardware
. Strength of Iraqi connections to larger cables
. Vulnerability of all of the above to enemy action
. Effectiveness differential between present and tele-present translators (you’ve dismissed this but consider how much easier it is tell someone’s emotions face to face then over the phone or Skype)
. Accuracy, field work doesn’t take place in ideal conditions, markets and streets are busy and loud and mistakes can cost lives
. Security, internet based systems can be hacked, admittedly live translators have their problems but they’re known problems.
. Time to create and deploy such a system- how much longer will you be in Iraq for?
And as for the lots of people idea why don’t you make an estimate of how many people in the USA you believe speak Iraqi Arabic, have a security clearance and the physical capability to keep up with trained soldiers?
Yes, actually. Very evidently you have never travelled much outside of your provincial home country. In emerging markets, mobile development, while a god-send for connectivity, is oft uneven, and the bandwidth subject to wild swings.
Never mind that communication by such means under stressful situations is… well not ideal at best. Never mind the fantastical idea of having video. And abstracting away from reliability of equipment under such conditions.
Again it is painfully evident you don’t have a command of second languages. Communication is not merely spoken language, it is also gesture and body language. In particular for unstructured and potentially violent situations, those non-verbal cues are quite important.
Bloody hell, I know this from simply being responsible for business negotiation (of course over multiple cultures and languages).
Supply and demand mate, supply and demand. Highly suggest that you not vote for political parties prone to going off on imperialistic benders and pretending such things are self-paying.
Queer observation. I believe said Tea Party people are largely pro War of Terror. It seems no small degree of magical thinking is going on.
There is nothing incompetent or unwise, however, in spending good money on qualified personnel. Incompetence would arise where the contracting body had some emotional and non-logical reaction to the dictates of supply and demand and either tried to administratively impose prices or come up with cockamamie unrealistic count-proposals. O
In any case, the pricing seems quite reasonable. I pay good Sterling at such prices for highly qualified interpreters and translators for key business deals because skipping on that kind of skill gets one fucked up documents that are not enforceable or not understandable leading to lost business.
When you start adding crypto and sat links to provide secure communications… etc. etc. etc. And then, it’s still going to break. What’s the point? It’s not only more effective, but far cheaper to just hire someone to go out with you.
The costs of war certainly are staggering. But for terps, the market has had almost ten years to settle, so it looks like the fair market value is around $145k. I’d say that’s wisely spent money considering the costs of training and equipping a soldier to be here. A terp’s work is hard to quantify, but if a saves even one soldier’s life his/her salary has just been covered several times over.
Just idly wondering how many people who were university age during Desert Storm, Gulf War I, were sharp enough to realize there’d be some economic benefit to getting an MA in Arabic, particularly specializing in the Iraqi dialect.
And for those who weren’t sharp enough to think that would be useful somewhere down the road, them’s the breaks. People who read the signs and saw the future potential of learning Arabic are valuable. Who’d have guessed?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post where the OP got “owned” so thoroughly by people that were much more informed, experienced, and aware of the realities of the world.
As someone said, $145k is “chump change” for a job of that skill, in that environment, who have a security clearance and are deployed away from their families. What do you think guys on oil rigs are getting paid?
Also, there have been at least 468 casualties in Iraq among contractors (not military).
I guess the solution is to get a bunch of Tea Partyers that are pissed off but have no clue, pay them a whopping 50k a year and send them over to the war zone to take the place of anyone and everyone that actually has a clue as to what their skills are worth.
To parphrase: “I can see Russia, that will intimidate Putin.”