# 14th Amendment - Section 3: Can it apply to someone running for president? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2022, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182 "2022-04-21T16:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2022, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/21 "2022-04-22T19:52:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, a case was brought before the court and the court must make a decision. I don’t disagree with this at all. But if the court holds in Schumer v. Trump that Trump is forever disqualified then it must give reasons for that, and those reasons must be more than me punching the mailman, and to have respect it must make a distinction between the two based on Constitutional principles and not just the scope of it. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/22 "2022-04-24T05:27:43Z")
I’m kind of sad that this thread seems to have died, but if someone gave me the black robes, I would rule that there must be objective extrinsic evidence of a rebellion or insurrection such as (after the civil war) signing a surrender or parole documents or a valid conviction of a crime which had rebellion or insurrection as an element of the offense. Anything less opens Pandora’s box. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/23 "2022-04-24T05:34:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > What does it mean legally today to have “engaged in insurrection or rebellion”? They had a clear definition then. Who has been convicted of insurrection or rebellion since? Certainly not any of the Capital Rioters. I haven’t checked all the hundreds of cases, but it seems clear that prosecutors are carefully staying away from such terms. [ustice.gov/opa/pr/leader-oath-keepers-and-10-other-individuals-indicted-federal-court-seditious-conspiracy-and](http://ustice.gov/opa/pr/leader-oath-keepers-and-10-other-individuals-indicted-federal-court-seditious-conspiracy-and) So yeah, they have been charged. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/24 "2022-04-24T05:45:01Z")
Sounds like overcharging. For whatever can be said about the people on January 6, I think it would be well known that they were trespassing among other crimes, but insurrection seems an amazing stretch. They might have stopped Congress that day, but in no capacity were they overthrowing the government. It was several hundred people, not up to the task of overthrowing the U.S. They would be expelled in short order and the normal process would carry on. To call that an insurrection does injustice to real insurrections. Those people are all dickheads. They are all criminals. They were all wrong. But insurrection is just too much to describe their behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/25 "2022-04-24T05:59:25Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > …I think it would be well known that they were trespassing among other crimes, but insurrection seems an amazing stretch. I am curious as to why you think that? Where do you draw the line? I mean, many crimes are a matter of drawing a line in a gray area. E.G. Is it murder or manslaughter or negligent homicide? Sometimes there is a bright line…sometimes not. What bar needs to be crossed to be legal insurrection? Only a Civil War? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/26 "2022-04-24T06:17:57Z")
Okay so maybe a few hundred couldn’t have succeeded, but that was their intent. And let us say trumps plan had gone off. Force Pence to not certify. The states are required to resend the results. The trumpists force the close states to send trump win votes in. Two sets of votes, Congress picks one, they pick trump. Insurrection. > **[A theory: How Trump’s Jan. 6 coup plan worked, how close it came, why it...](https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/trump-january-6-coup-plan-national-guard-20211216.html)** > > The planned coup nearly worked, but leftists stayed home and likely thwarted plans to call in troops to aid insurrectionists. > **[What if the Jan. 6 insurrection had succeeded in illegally installing Trump?](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2022/01/04/jan-6-capitol-attempted-coup-trump/8912294002/)** > > What if Donald Trump were illegally installed for a second term? He would then have moved quickly to consolidate power, with Republican help. So yeah- attempted insurrection. No doubt whatsoever. Sedition. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/27 "2022-04-24T06:34:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Force Pence to not certify. Interesting you mention that: > **[Pence Refusing to Get in Secret Service Car on Jan. 6 'Chilling': Raskin](https://www.newsweek.com/pence-refusing-get-secret-service-car-jan-6-chilling-raskin-1700341)** > > The intent, some have theorized, was to drive the former vice president away from the Capitol to prevent him from certifying the 2020 election results. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/28 "2022-04-24T09:08:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The states are required to resend the results. The trumpists force the close states to send trump win votes in. I really didn’t want to argue this, but no, there would be no requirement for states to “resend” results assuming that the intrusion in the Capitol delayed the proceedings for a day or even a week. But we have had a lot of threads about January 6, and I think the topic is more interesting if it is kept general. As a kid, I remember a teacher’s strike and a special session of the legislature was called to deal with it. The demonstrators walked onto the floor of the legislature while they were in session. Insurrection? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/29 "2022-04-24T16:45:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [ustice.gov/opa/pr/leader-oath-keepers-and-10-other-individuals-indicted-federal-court-seditious-conspiracy-and](http://ustice.gov/opa/pr/leader-oath-keepers-and-10-other-individuals-indicted-federal-court-seditious-conspiracy-and) > > So yeah, they have been charged. You link doesn’t work, so here’s the [correction](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/leader-oath-keepers-and-10-other-individuals-indicted-federal-court-seditious-conspiracy-and). It’s also irrelevant. I deliberately said convicted. Anyone can be indicted on a change, and be acquitted, have the charge dismissed, or be convicted of a lesser charge. All those would invalidate the conviction needed to put the 14th Amendment into play. I don’t believe any of them have come to trial yet, so a possibility exists that actual convictions for sedition may happen in the future. Even so, 10 out of 600 is within the bounds of “carefully staying away from such terms.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/30 "2022-04-24T17:31:11Z")
Treason always prospers. What’s the reason? When it doth not prosper, none dare call it treason. Or wait, I think it went differently… But yeah, I agree that there needs to be an official legal determination, either a guilty verdict, or a declaration of war, or something. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/31 "2022-04-24T17:59:59Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > They might have stopped Congress that day, but in no capacity were they overthrowing the government. It was several hundred people, not up to the task of overthrowing the U.S. They would be expelled in short order and the normal process would carry on. To call that an insurrection does injustice to real insurrections. > > Those people are all dickheads. They are all criminals. They were all wrong. But insurrection is just too much to describe their behavior. Oh, I guess I just imagined this, then. [![](https://www.ourquadcities.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2021/01/GettyImages-1230473117.jpg) ](https://www.ourquadcities.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2021/01/GettyImages-1230473117.jpg) There were people there chanting to hang Mike Pence and execute Nancy Pelosi. People burst into Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s office, with the intent to do her harm, while she was hiding in the bathroom. They need not to have succeeded in their attempt for it to be called an insurrection. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/32 "2022-04-24T18:48:41Z")
Was Lee Harvey Oswald guilty of insurrection for shooting JFK? I don’t think he was even though such an act was horrific and struck at the heart of our government. Words matter. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/33 "2022-04-24T18:51:31Z")
@UltraVires, were you just… _not paying attention_ on January 6? JFK was but one man. They stormed the Capitol and tried to take out an entire branch of the federal government. (Well, the Republicans, except for Mike Pence, might have been okay.) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/34 "2022-04-24T18:55:11Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > They stormed the Capitol and tried to take out an entire branch of the federal government. Kennedy was an entire branch of the federal government. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/35 "2022-04-24T19:13:13Z")
No. There was Johnson the Secretary of State and the rest of the Cabinet. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/36 "2022-04-24T20:26:59Z")
I don’t wish to debate executive or presidential supremacy as we have done that in other threads. But the allegation was made that the rioters on January 6 wanted to kill Pelosi or AOC. That doesn’t disable an entire branch as there were other congresspeople, much like how killing Kennedy who from an a fortiori position does disable a branch of government, such a thing like killing a single congressperson, even if true, does not. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/37 "2022-04-24T20:37:15Z")
The January 6 rioters were part of an effort to overturn a US election and install the government they wanted, by force, in lieu of the legal government. How is that not insurrection? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/38 "2022-04-24T20:44:42Z")
We have done this in other threads. I disagree with your characterization and fail to understand how, say, John Hinckley is also guilty of insurrection by trying to kill the lawfully elected President of the United States. People who voted for Trump’s first impeachment were trying to oust the president. If this type of loose language takes effect then literally anything could be said to be insurrection. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/39 "2022-04-24T20:48:04Z")
IOW, I think it must be far more; think Confederate Army during the Civil War level of insurrection. Not just people trespassing and breaking shit on one single day. That was horrible, I agree, but not insurrection. Too strong of a word, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182/40 "2022-04-24T20:50:09Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > People who voted for Trump’s first impeachment were trying to oust the president. Yeah…in the legal, prescribed way. Hinckley killing a president does not overthrow the government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/14th-amendment-section-3-can-it-apply-to-someone-running-for-president/963182.md?page=3)