# 15-year-old girl prosecuted for child porn **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 5, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386 "2004-04-05T17:02:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/81 "2004-04-07T14:56:51Z")
Maybe people are decrying the prosecutor because they think that only a fucktarded idiot of a DA would ever actually file charges like the ones in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/82 "2004-04-07T15:07:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by catsix_ > Maybe people are decrying the prosecutor because they think that only a fucktarded idiot of a DA would ever actually file charges like the ones in this case? Hmmm. Hadn’t thought of that. What, by the way, are the facts of “this case”? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/83 "2004-04-07T16:01:30Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > It’s not up to the jury to decide whether the law is right or the prosecutor charged appropriately or anything other than did the prosecutor prove each of the elements of the charge beyond a reasonable doubt. I don’t know about that statement. Cite? From [http://www.greenmac.com/eagle/ISSUES/ISSUE23-9/07JuryNullification.html](http://www.greenmac.com/eagle/ISSUES/ISSUE23-9/07JuryNullification.html) > [@](#): > > In fact, if you have doubts about the fairness of a law, you have the right and obligation to find someone innocent even though they have actually broken the law! John Adams, our second president, had this to say about the juror: “It is not only his right but his duty…to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court.” And from [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/zenger/nullification.html](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/zenger/nullification.html) > [@](#): > > Judges have worried that informing jurors of their power to nullify will lead to jury anarchy, with jurors following their own sympathies. They suggest that informing of the power to nullify will increase the number of hung juries. Some judges also have pointed out that jury nullification has had both positive and negative applications–the negative applications including some notorious cases in which all-white southern juries in the 1950s and 1960s refused to convict white supremacists for killing blacks or civil rights workers despite overwhelming evidence of their guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Yumanite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b487fb/32.png) [@Yumanite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumanite)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/84 "2004-04-07T16:44:01Z")
> [@Okaybear](#): > > Yes, yes, I recognize the fact that legally you can charge someone who’s over 18 with an adult crime when they can’t even buy a pack of cigs from the drug store, let alone make and distribute their own nuddie photos. But does that seem hypocritical to anyone other than me? Slight hijack: I believe that it is legal to buy cigs when you turn 18, at least in the US. If you substituted ‘alcohol’ you’d be correct (within the US) – the legal drinking age is 21. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/85 "2004-04-07T16:57:53Z")
Stud **e** baker vs. Stud **a** baker. > [@GorillaMan](#): > > [Abductor of girl, 12, jailed | Children | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1184781,00.html) 😕 Spelled more like [this.](http://www.studebakermuseum.org/) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/86 "2004-04-07T17:13:11Z")
By **Otto** : “See, I think the problem here is that you’re assigning a single meaning to the phrase “child pornographer.” There are degrees and shades of meaning. Just like there are degrees and shades of meaning to words like “killer” and “thief.” Is she a “child pornographer” in the same way that someone kidnapping children in Denmark and forcing them to pose is a “child pornographer”? No, of course not, which is why juries don’t convict people of being labels. They convict (or acquit) them of charges.” No, I’m not assigning a single meaning. I’m saying that **the law** may assign a single meaning. For example, the law may fail to recognize the difference between this situation and a child pornographer such as you described above. If that were the case, then I’d vote for acquital. If the law does in fact recognize degrees of offence in this case, then I’d certainly listen and evaluate on that basis. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/87 "2004-04-07T17:38:34Z")
> [@The Man With The Golden Gun](#): > > Not to suggest anything about myself, but if this case holds, I’m probably going to be in deep shit. 😃 [Internet Police] _SIR! Return that gun to its holster and **step away** from the computer_! [/Internet Police] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/88 "2004-04-07T18:33:27Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > In the eyes of the law she’s a child. I haven’t seen that were she convicted of these charges that she would be required to register as a sex offender. Can you site a source for the contention? Dunno about the jurisdiction in question, **do** know that in Michigan a person who is found guilty of a sex offense (even if they aren’t prosecuted as an adult) are still registered on the public web site. [here](http://michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-712a-18&queryid=6454840&highlight=sex%20offender%20regist*) > [@](#): > > (15) If the juvenile is within the court’s jurisdiction under section 2(a)(1) of this chapter for an offense other than a listed offense as defined in section 2(e)(i) to (ix) and (xi) to (xiii) of the sex offenders registration act, 1994 PA 295, MCL 28.722, the court shall determine if the offense is a violation of a law of this state or a local ordinance of a municipality of this state that by its nature constitutes a sexual offense against an individual who is less than 18 years of age. If so, the order of disposition is for a listed offense as defined in section 2(e)(x) of the sex offenders registration act, 1994 PA 295, MCL 28.722, and the court shall include the basis for that determination on the record and include the determination in the order of disposition. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/89 "2004-04-07T18:35:56Z")
> [@vetbridge](#): > > I don’t know about that statement. Cite? Can you find me a jurisdiction in the United States in which a lawyer is allowed to argue jury nullification? And I didn’t say that jury nullification didn’t happen. I said that it’s not the job of the jury to decide whether a law is good or bad. That some juries do it doesn’t mean that by definition it’s right or good or legal or the jury’s job. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/90 "2004-04-07T19:04:06Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Can you find me a jurisdiction in the United States in which a lawyer is allowed to argue jury nullification? And I didn’t say that jury nullification didn’t happen. I said that it’s not the job of the jury to decide whether a law is good or bad. That some juries do it doesn’t mean that by definition it’s right or good or legal or the jury’s job. IANAL. I have heard some interesting talk about jury nullification, however. If I (as a juror) discuss nullification during jury deliberations what are the consequences? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/91 "2004-04-07T19:20:38Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Can you find me a jurisdiction in the United States in which a lawyer is allowed to argue jury nullification No. However, I did find information about a group trying to educate people that nullification is something that can be done… From: [http://www.jacobgrier.com/papers/JuryNullification.htm](http://www.jacobgrier.com/papers/JuryNullification.htm) > [@](#): > > The issue of jury nullification has stirred new interest in the United States, not just among academics but also among citizen groups. The most notable among these is the Fully Informed Jury Association (FIJA), whose purpose is “to inform all Americans about their rights, powers and responsibilities when serving as trial jurors… [and] to restore the political function of the jury as the final check and balance on the American system of government” (FIJA). The organization operates by distributing pamphlets outside courthouses and seeking publicity. Though their efforts have not produced measurable affects on the attitudes of juries as a whole, there are many specific cases where jurors report being influenced by FIJA literature when voting to acquit. Also, their campaign is unique in that it is not tied to a specific issue. Historically, the circulation of pro-nullification writings has always come about in response to the persecution of a particular group (Conrad 1998, 154-165). ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/92 "2004-04-07T20:19:25Z")
IAAL, and I’m confused. If this were a question on the bar exam, I would definitely say that she was not guilty of any crime. The general rule is that members of the class the law is designed to protect are not liable. This sounds like a case that’s going to get dropped before it reaches a jury. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/93 "2004-04-07T21:13:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **Zoff** said: > What, by the way, are the facts of “this case”? So far as I know, she took and then posted pictures of her naked self on the Internet. I’ve always been under the impression that ‘The People’, and specifically the victim, are represented in court by the DA or the prosecutor who attempts to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant comitted the crime that he or she is accused of having committed. My difficulty with these charges is that the ‘victim’ in this case is also the defendant, so supposedly the prosecutor/DA is bringing charges on her (and the people’s) behalf to exact justice for the harm done to her by attempting to put the person who harmed her through some kind of legal punishment. First off, I don’t get the impression that she’s the victim of a crime, or that there was any ‘harm’ committed against her. I also wonder just exactly how the hell this will work in court, since the victims of sex crimes usually testify as to what happened, how the crime affected them, and so on during the trial. Who’s going on the stand here? Her? Can the prosecution call her as a prosecution witness since she is supposedly the ‘victim’ of the ‘child pornographer’? Would that even be a good idea? I somehow doubt she’d sit up there with her Kleenex sobbing about how ‘the defendant’ forced her to take her clothes off for the pictures and then posted them on the Internet. If they could call her as a witness because she is the ‘victim’ of this crime, can she invoke her Fifth Amendment rights not to answer questions _as the victim_ because she’s also the defendant and has a right not to say anything that could be used to incriminate herself? Can the defense put her on the stand to attempt to shoot down the prosecution’s theory that there is a victim of a child pornographer in this case? If she got up there and said that she doesn’t consider herself a victim of child pornography, does that make her a remorseless sex offender? Just how the hell would a trial like this even work? Call a bunch of people to say that she sent them pictures of herself naked who will not admit it on the stand because they’d incriminate themselves for receiving child pornography? Offer _them_ immunity for possessing the pictures so they’ll testify that she sent them, but still go ahead with the prosecution of the victim^H^H^H^H^H^H defendant because clearly it’s the suppliers of ‘kiddie porn’ who have done the worse of the two crimes? In my head I’m seeing a trial in which the only witnesses that actually testify give pretty damned clear testimony that yes, the pictures do exist, which as far as I know, nobody is disputing, and no testimony of any kind that would prove there is a victim much less that the defendant victimized anyone by taking and distributing the pictures. I’m obviously not a lawyer, just an engineer, but I’m the kind of person who gets randomly selected for jury duty and I can’t imagine how a prosecutor could get me to wrap my mind around this case in a ‘return a guilty verdict’ kind of way. It just doesn’t make sense. Maybe this is why Traci Lords was never charged with a single crime, although there are anywhere from 70 to 107 different titles containing pornographic footage of her shot while she was under 18, and she was a Penthouse Pet at the age of 15. Lords actually only made one porn movie after her 18th birthday, which is the only legal pornographic footage of her ever shot. Apparently she was arrested, but never charged. Hmm, her porn films and nude photo spread were seen by and distributed to millions of people, yet nobody saw fit to ever charge her with a crime. Meanwhile this girl showed some nudie photos of herself to a few people on the Internet and all of a sudden she’s a dangerous criminal? What, was Traci Lords just lucky that she didn’t make her porn in Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania? ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/94 "2004-04-07T22:16:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by catsix_ > So far as I know, she took and then posted pictures of her naked self on the Internet. (Emphassis added) The underlined portion is my point. So far as we know, these are the few facts known. We don’t know anything else. We don’t know if what you state is the extent of her actions or not. We don’t know if this is part of a larger investigation. Regarding the victim/defendant issue, the DA prosecutes on behalf of the people. The “victim” in the legal sense is the people, not the 15 year old. For instance, if you are mugged and refuse to assist the prosecution, they can still prosecute the mugger because they are not prosecuting on your behalf. When more facts come to light, it might turn out to be the single dumbest idea a prosecutor ever had. But we don’t have enough information to come to an educated, reasonable conclusion about what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/95 "2004-04-07T22:39:45Z")
I wonder if she’ll be tried as an adult? You gotta love the irony of that one. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/96 "2004-04-07T23:31:05Z")
> [@Kyomara](#): > > I am appalled that no one has asked the one really important question here: > > Was she hot? I didn’t have the stones. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/97 "2004-04-07T23:44:08Z")
> [@chula](#): > > IAAL, and I’m confused. If this were a question on the bar exam, I would definitely say that she was not guilty of any crime. The general rule is that members of the class the law is designed to protect are not liable. This sounds like a case that’s going to get dropped before it reaches a jury. I was thinking the same thing. Are there any other lawyers in the house with a contrary opinion? Why? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/98 "2004-04-08T02:53:34Z")
> [@](#): > > **Zoff** said: > The “victim” in the legal sense is the people, not the 15 year old. For instance, if you are mugged and refuse to assist the prosecution, they can still prosecute the mugger because they are not prosecuting on your behalf. If there are no witnesses and no physical evidence that a crime was committed, how would they prove a mugging took place without my testimony? If they think someone mugged me because he now has some amount of money that I now don’t have, but I steadfastly tell them that I was not mugged, and I will say on the witness stand that I was not mugged, how would they actually prosecute that? Also odd about what you said: when someone is raped, the victim is the person who was raped, when someone was murdered, the victim is the dead person, and when a child is sexually abused the victim is the child. But when a 15 year old takes naked pictures of herself, the victim is society? In what way did this harm society or ‘the people’ at all? > [@](#): > > The underlined portion is my point. So far as we know, these are the few facts known. I think that if the media managed to get any inclination at all that this girl was coerced into taking those pictures, there would have been a Dateline or 20/20 special about it already. > [@](#): > > When more facts come to light, it might turn out to be the single dumbest idea a prosecutor ever had. But we don’t have enough information to come to an educated, reasonable conclusion about what’s going on. What other information are you looking for here? Why do you think there _is_ more information that we don’t know? What is so damned implausible about this having been entirely her idea and her action? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/99 "2004-04-08T03:31:47Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > What other information are you looking for here? Why do you think there _is_ more information that we don’t know? What is so damned implausible about this having been entirely her idea and her action? 'Cause she’s only 15, dammit! We all know 15-year-olds just don’t DO stuff like this unless they’re coerced to by a nasty, perverted older man! Of course, this doesn’t explain why I spent most of my teenage/young adult years (14-around 23) hanging out in public restrooms having anonymous sex with strangers who not only had no idea how old I was, but never even saw my face (because I didn’t want them to balk at the whole “underage” thing). Teenagers don’t have sex or the urge to have sex, dammit! They’re simon-pure unless some evil adult makes them otherwise! ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386/100 "2004-04-08T03:47:52Z")
Yeah, like you, I remember what I was doing when I was 15. Had the Internet been so big then, I might’ve been this girl. And it wasn’t for being coerced in the least. I’d lie about my age, do whatever I could to fake it so that I seemed older. I wouldn’t be surprised at _all_ if this is the whole story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/15-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-child-porn/238386.md?page=6)