# 150,000 Christians are killed for their faith each year? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600 "2012-09-13T14:48:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/21 "2012-09-14T02:50:20Z")
> [@j666](#): > > [I disagree.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Stevens_(diplomat)) Yeah I watch the news, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/22 "2012-09-14T03:22:46Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Yeah I watch the news, thanks. I am not implying that you are ill-informed, merely insensitive. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/23 "2012-09-14T03:58:49Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Yeah I watch the news, thanks. You’re doing a remarkable job of arguing against the positions you hold. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/24 "2012-09-14T04:33:13Z")
I’m not sure when the last time I’ve seen so many comments on the thread that reminded of the significance of the phrase “a distinction without a difference.” ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/25 "2012-09-14T04:36:40Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I understand this accounts for a very large percentage of the huge number of adherents the Mormon church claims. > > . You understand wrongly ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/26 "2012-09-14T05:25:40Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Most of your cites are from Christian publications…hell, one dubs itself ‘News from the front lines of persecution.’ I would tend to discard their accounts. The others, BBC for example, are stories about Christians being killed. They mention no particular motivation. > … Oops. I forgot to use appropriate SDMB approved website sources: From [Democratic Underground](http://www.democraticunderground.com/101420113) which cites MSNBC [‘Persistent killings’: Christians flee deadly attacks in Nigeria](http://www.democraticunderground.com/101420113) > [@](#): > > MAIDUGURI, Nigeria — Hundreds of Christians have begun fleeing northern Nigeria after dozens were killed in a series of attacks by Islamist militants who issued an ultimatum to Christians to leave the mainly Muslim region or be killed, witnesses said on Saturday… Christians, Leave or be killed. Pretty direct. From [Huffington Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20120713/af-nigeria-radical-sect/) > [@](#): > > …Hundreds of assailants armed with guns and machetes stormed a dozen Christian villages on Saturday, said Capt. Mustapha Saliu, a spokesman for a special unit of police and soldiers deployed to halt violence in the area. Some attackers wore police uniforms and bullet-proof vests, he said. > … > A statement attributed to the Islamist radical sect Boko Haram and obtained by The Associated Press claimed it was responsible for the attacks and warned that Christians “will not know peace again” if they do not accept Islam. From [Human Rights Watch](http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/01/23/nigeria-boko-haram-widens-terror-campaign) > [@](#): > > Many of the attacks in the past month have specifically targeted Christians and southern Nigerians living in the north, including the Christmas Day 2011 bombing of a Catholic church in Madalla, Niger State, which killed at least 40 people. Just for the record, Christians are the majority in southern Nigeria. I hope no one is seriously arguing that detonating a bomb in a Christian church on Christmas Day is not targeting people due to their Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/27 "2012-09-14T05:40:39Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > And finally, the topic of persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt came up. My off-the-cuff flippant comment to that was “Easy enough to solve…don’t be 1) Christian 2) in Egypt.” As Todd Akin might have put it, “Easy enough to solve..don’t be 1) scantily clad 2) in a deserted alleway at night”. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/28 "2012-09-14T05:44:26Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > As Todd Akin might have put it, “Easy enough to solve..don’t be 1) scantily clad 2) in a deserted alleway at night”. Yep…victim blaming is so much more fun than admitting that there are bad people in this world that do bad things for their own bad reasons. Whoddathunkit? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/29 "2012-09-14T05:52:24Z")
I personally doubt that 150,000 Christians are killed per year on account of their religion per se, as opposed to ethnicity or (often religiously-driven) political acts, but it has to be a large number. _Christianity Today_ used to document specific countries and cases of anti-Christian persecution in more or less every issue — while they’re obviously a Christian source, they won’t be making up stories. Also, just this week we were talking on the Straight Dope about Christians being threatened in Pakistan by their neighbours after the blasphemy accusations. > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I happen to think that Christians lying about the annual martyr count is insensitive. There is a difference between lying and using a faulty definition. Seeing as they give you a decent idea of how broadly they define martyr, there really is no dishonesty there. > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > To include them in a count of those who were killed explicitly for being Christian is at least disingenuous, an at most an outright lie. This is simply ridiculous. The point about Christian martyrs is that they made a very conscious decision to practice their beliefs and not someone else’s, despite knowing that it might get them killed, out of a moral commitment to a religion whose founder and first members were also murdered for their beliefs. Yes, there are other religions whose members are martyred for their beliefs, and yes, the people who murder Christians would often (though probably not always) just as readily kill members of other religions as well, were they around. Nonetheless, Christian who are killed for what they _aren’t_ are fundamentally dying for what they _are_; you’re trying to make a pointless and disrespectful distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/30 "2012-09-14T16:18:17Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > The fact that if those people were not Christians but some other non-Muslim religion, they might still get killed just doesn’t matter. They were still killed because they were Christian, just like the hypothetical black guy was killed because he was black. > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > I’m not sure when the last time I’ve seen so many comments on the thread that reminded of the significance of the phrase “a distinction without a difference.” > [@straight man](#): > > Yes, there are other religions whose members are martyred for their beliefs, and yes, the people who murder Christians would often (though probably not always) just as readily kill members of other religions as well, were they around. Nonetheless, Christian who are killed for what they _aren’t_ are fundamentally dying for what they _are_; you’re trying to make a pointless and disrespectful distinction. I certainly don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone, and I understand if the point I’m trying to make might seem at first glance to be just useless hairsplitting. But I don’t think it is, and I’ll try once more to explain why that’s so. Many interpretations of Christian doctrine regard hatred, persecution and violence toward Christians as somehow **intrinsic** to or **inevitable** in the nature of Christianity itself, as a manifestation of Satan’s hatred for Jesus and his adherents. A lot of modern Christians discussing present-day instances of persecution or terror killings of Christians explicitly invoke this belief and its basis in Bible texts like the following: > [@](#): > > Matthew 10:22 “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake […]” > > Matthew 24:9 “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.” > > Luke 6:22 “Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.” > > Luke 21:12 “But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you […]” > > John 15:18-20 “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you […] > If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you […]” > > John 17:14 “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.” > > Philippians 1:29 “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake […]” > > 2 Timothy 3:12 “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” > > 1 John 3:13 “Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.” I think this doctrine often colors popular perceptions of violence and persecution against Christians and oversimplifies their causes. The terror attacks in Nigeria are a case in point. Even the conservative _National Review Online_’s February 8 article on global persecution of Christians [noted](http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/290498/global-persecution-christians-conrad-black#): > [@](#): > > And the anti-Christian violence in Nigeria has flared up dangerously, though in that country the Christians are almost as numerous as, and more prosperous than, the Muslims, and the frictions are largely on tribal, geographic, and economic as well as sectarian lines. But the ubiquitous repetition of the remark that Christians are being killed and persecuted “for their faith” elides all those complexities into a simple reinforcement of the Christian doctrine that Christians are bound to be persecuted because faith in Christ is good and the forces of evil hate it. Moreover, that theological perspective on persecution of Christians leaves out the persecution, suffering and deaths of millions of victims who **aren’t** Christians, simply because they don’t fit into this martyrological narrative. I’m certainly not claiming that Christians or majority-Christian societies in general don’t **care** if non-Christians are persecuted; I’m just pointing out that the simplistic assumptions about Christians being persecuted specifically “for their faith” makes it easier not to **notice** how much non-Christians are persecuted. That, in short (too late!), is why I don’t think it’s pointless or nitpicky to make a distinction between Christians being persecuted or killed for some reason(s) involving their _identity_ as Christians, and Christians being persecuted or killed simply “for their _faith_” as Christians. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/31 "2012-09-14T16:48:48Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I have no idea how to say it more clearly…they were not killed because of their beliefs. They were killed because the did NOT believe the same things as the murderers. They were killed because they chose to associate themselves with Westerners and assume the practices and beliefs of Westerners. > > To include them in a count of those who were killed explicitly for being Christian is at least disingenuous, an at most an outright lie. I don’t think you need to state it more clearly. I’m not even a little confused about what you are claiming. I simply disagree with you. I claim that being killed for not believing X qualifies as being killed for your beliefs. I also claim that “believers in Y” who are killed for not believing in X are justifiably counted as “believers in Y killed for their belief”. Go back and read the post about the black guy who “wasn’t killed because he was black, he was killed because he was non-white”. It’s perfectly analogous to your claim, and (to me) perfectly ridiculous. Do you see why I think it’s ridiculous (even if you don’t agree)? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/32 "2012-09-14T17:00:18Z")
I’m dubious of the number but not about the fact that this can happen. By the same token I wonder if people aren’t trying a little too hard to reject the possibility that Christians do get this kind of treatment in some places. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/33 "2012-09-14T17:35:51Z")
I’m posting from my phone so this won’t be complete participation, but Kimtsu elaborated much more thoroughly than I would have, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/34 "2012-09-14T19:15:59Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > > > I understand this accounts for a very large percentage of the huge number of adherents the Mormon church claims. > > You understand wrongly Uhhh, cite please? As I understand it, a very large percentage of new LDS converts simply write off their conversion as a mistake. Many do not self-identify as Mormons a year later, although few go through the hassle of resigning. Sicks Ate has a point. Unless they are excommunicated, resign, or reach their 110th birthday, the 14 million official Mormons are “counted as [Mormon] regardless of whether they retain the religion or not.” And from time to time, an overambitious Area President or Mission President boosts his numbers by encouraging the missionaries to baptize people who don’t even know what they’re getting into. Try googling “baseball baptisms”, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/35 "2012-09-14T20:43:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering the fact that nearly 10% of Egyptians are Christians and that they been living in Egypt for almost two millennia(far outpacing Islam in Egypt) such a statement is both jaw-droppingly stupid and grossly insensitive. > > One can certainly agree that many Evangelicals exagerate the number of Christians persecuted for being Christians without making moronic statements about actual persecution. > > I’ll assume when Muslims were being slaughtered in Bosnia you didn’t say “don’t be a Muslim in Bosnia.” No we went in with troops and sorted it out. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/36 "2012-09-18T17:35:54Z")
During The Troubles in Northern Ireland, in which the ethno-political violence was between the mainly Protestant unionist and mainly Catholic nationalist communities in Northern Ireland. It was tribalism between two groups which happen to be clearly differentiated by religion. Was this a war over sects in Christianity or between ethic groups? If it was primarily a battle over religion, would losses on both sides count toward the number of Christians who are killed for the faith? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/37 "2012-09-20T23:13:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Are you arguing that if these Nigerians had been Jews or Buddhists instead of Christians, the radical-Islamist terrorists would have left them alone? Hardly. There was nothing specifically about the **Christian faith** as opposed to any other non-radical-Muslim faith that made these people targets of violence. You are splitting hairs here. Christians are being killed because they refuse to give up their faith. They could convert to Islam to save their lives. Sure, the Islamists don’t give a flying fuck what they believe if it isn’t Islam, but Christians are still dying for their faith. I don’t know if there are any Jews or Buddhists in Nigeria, but the same would go for them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/38 "2012-09-21T01:13:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No we went in with troops and sorted it out. Which division was sent in? ---
**Author:** ![dolwgan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/919ad9/32.png) [@dolwgan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolwgan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/39 "2013-11-10T17:05:25Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > For example, persecution and ‘religious cleansing’ in Nigeria, also cited in the article. It mentions cleansing against Christians in the country’s north. From my limited knowledge of the area, I’m aware that there are many, many different groups that may not get along with each other. What are the odds that the Christians being pursued are also not hated because of a tribal/ethnic/traditional reason? If that is the case, then the fact that they are Christian is incidental. Sicks Ate, the fact that Islamic fundamentalists in Nigeria acknowledge that they are responsible for the deaths of not only Christians but other people as well would seem to show the inadequacy of this argument > [@](#): > > On a related note, the host of the program threw out a number, I don’t remember exactly what it was but it was large, stating how many Christians currently live in squalid poverty. (If you can’t tell already, it was a poor-us-Christians-we-suffer-so-much-but-it’s-ok-Jesus-love-us show). > > I think one very good reason that number is so high is that Christian missionaries have a habit of traveling to places rife with squalid poverty, ‘converting’ the masses, and then calling them (and counting them as) Christian regardless of whether they retain the religion or not. Christianity has always appealed to the poor, because of its message of non-discrimination and equality. > [@](#): > > I understand this accounts for a very large percentage of the huge number of adherents the Mormon church claims. Why use a fact about a non-Christian organisation to illustrate something about Christianity? > [@](#): > > And finally, the topic of persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt came up. My off-the-cuff flippant comment to that was “Easy enough to solve…don’t be 1) Christian 2) in Egypt.” That’s a pretty pathetic comment, SA. After all, the Coptic church in Eygpt is 4 or 500 years older than Islam as a whole is, suggesting that they have at least as much right to live there. > [@](#): > > So, ae there any actual facts to back up the numbers claimed. I feel like the’re probably ginned up as part of the faux-persecution crusade that US Christians are currently on. There is no faux-persecution crusade in existence, because the Christian church across the globe **is** being persecuted. Islamic fundamentalists have made many public statements to the effect that they would like to destroy Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/40 "2013-11-10T18:16:27Z")
Hey! Zombie resurrection! > [@dolwgan](#): > > Christianity has always appealed to the poor, because of its message of non-discrimination and equality. Unless you were a black slave, or a woman, or gay or from another religion in which case you were fucked. > [@](#): > > There is no faux-persecution crusade in existence, because the Christian church across the globe **is** being persecuted. Really? I guess the liberal press just covers up because I don’t hear about it. Or, what globe are we talking about? > [@](#): > > Islamic fundamentalists have made many public statements to the effect that they would like to destroy Christianity. And Christian fundamentalists also say things just as stupid and just as barbaric. The world would be much better off without fundamentalists of any color or stripe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600.md?page=3)