# 150,000 Christians are killed for their faith each year? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600 "2012-09-13T14:48:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/41 "2013-11-10T19:15:42Z")
It’s nice of **dolgwan** to show up and demonstrate precisely why the distinction **Kimstu** made is significant. Because while there are certainly many cases of people being killed because they were Christian, there are almost no cases where the people killing the Christian would not also have gladly murdered my queer atheist ass. And yet people like **dolgwan** use those statistics to try to argue that Christianity is _especially_ persecuted, which is patently ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/42 "2013-11-10T19:25:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nowhere in your links is there an example of a Christian victim of Nigerian violence unambiguously described as targeted **specifically** and **only** for their Christian faith. > > From your first link: > > From your second link: > > From your third link: > > And so forth. Of course these terror attacks on innocent civilians are heinous, but it’s perfectly clear that, as I noted, none of the victims were killed **for their faith** _per se_, as the OP was asking about. > > Rather, they (like several of their moderate Muslim compatriots) were killed for being part of a demographic obstacle to the tyrannical desire of the radical Islamist terror group Boko Haram to impose their version of radical shari’a law upon all of Nigeria. > > Are you arguing that if these Nigerians had been Jews or Buddhists instead of Christians, the radical-Islamist terrorists would have left them alone? Hardly. There was nothing specifically about the **Christian faith** as opposed to any other non-radical-Muslim faith that made these people targets of violence. > > [ETA: Or, what **Sicks Ate** said.] I guess it’s OK to be racist against blacks as long as you hate Mexicans too. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/43 "2013-11-10T19:31:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s nice of **dolgwan** to show up and demonstrate precisely why the distinction **Kimstu** made is significant. Because while there are certainly many cases of people being killed because they were Christian, there are almost no cases where the people killing the Christian would not also have gladly murdered my queer atheist ass. And yet people like **dolgwan** use those statistics to try to argue that Christianity is _especially_ persecuted, which is patently ridiculous. I know right? It’s like gays in the US complaining about how bigoted Klan types have persecuted them, when those same people would lynch my black pagan ass in a second and I am not even gay. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/44 "2013-11-10T19:42:21Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I have no idea how to say it more clearly…they were not killed because of their beliefs. They were killed because the did NOT believe the same things as the murderers. They were killed because they chose to associate themselves with Westerners and assume the practices and beliefs of Westerners. You might take a second and think about it before you just go ahead and accept accept the assumption of Boko Haram that things like immunizing infants, teaching girls to read anything other than the Koran, and allowing women to leave the house are part of a Western Colonialist plot. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/45 "2013-11-10T20:44:45Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I know right? It’s like gays in the US complaining about how bigoted Klan types have persecuted them, when those same people would lynch my black pagan ass in a second and I am not even gay. Fortunately, no-one’s persecuted for being gay in the US - they’re persecuted for not being straight. The people who persecute gays would just as happily persecute lesbians, bisexuals, transfolk or genderqueers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/46 "2013-11-10T21:46:40Z")
Things were much better a few hundred years ago when most Christians killed because of their faith were killed by other Christians of a slightly different faith. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/47 "2013-11-10T22:09:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Things were much better a few hundred years ago when most Christians killed because of their faith were killed by other Christians of a slightly different faith. None of those deaths count, because they also targeted Jews. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/48 "2013-11-10T22:39:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s nice of **dolgwan** to show up and demonstrate precisely why the distinction **Kimstu** made is significant. Because while there are certainly many cases of people being killed because they were Christian, there are almost no cases where the people killing the Christian would not also have gladly murdered my queer atheist ass. And yet people like **dolgwan** use those statistics to try to argue that Christianity is _especially_ persecuted, which is patently ridiculous. Miller, I can certainly sympathize with how you feel particularly since his post was rather odd, but based on that logic it’s wrong to classify the Jewish victims of Auschwitz as being killed because they were Jews since the Nazis also would have killed you for being gay. I’m almost mathematically certain you don’t believe that though you could reasonably argue the gay, gypsy and Jehovah’s Witness victims are often ignored and in many cases deliberately so. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/49 "2013-11-10T22:44:57Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I know right? It’s like gays in the US complaining about how bigoted Klan types have persecuted them, when those same people would lynch my black pagan ass in a second and I am not even gay. I’ve never heard of any gays talking about gays getting murdered by the Klan and ignoring their long history of murdering blacks. I’m also not sure that most gay bashers in America would do the same to blacks. For example maybe the murderers of Matt Shepherd would have killed him if he was black and straight, but unless the allegations of The Book of Matt are correct, I doubt it. For that matter, plenty of gay bashers have been black. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/50 "2013-11-10T23:01:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ve never heard of any gays talking about gays getting murdered by the Klan and ignoring their long history of murdering blacks. So? This is a kind of bizarre statement. Anyway, I was simply making the same point that you are in post 48. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/51 "2013-11-11T01:24:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > None of those deaths count, because they also targeted Jews. > > Regards, > Shodan You mean in the countries where we hadn’t been driven out, right? \*hums “National Brotherhood Week” \* ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/52 "2013-11-11T04:44:29Z")
Ok, so the OP addressed a claim of 150,000 Christians killed each year for their beliefs. Iggy came back with multiple links covering Boko Haram, a militia active in northern Nigeria. The thread began in September 2012. I say that when an Islamic group launches a planned attack against attenders of a church service that it can be fairly interpreted as a bigoted attack. So some Christians are indeed murdered for their faith. Over at wikipedia, I see that Boko Haram has killed about 320 people per year between 2009 and 2013. They attack and bomb Christians and churches, but also schools and police stations. Remember their name means, “Western education is sinful”. They have assassinated members of the Islamic establishment - not pure enough it seems. They may practice ethnic cleansing against the Hausa and Fulani peoples. Unsurprisingly mainstream Muslim groups denounce them. So we have one local terrorist group with a varied agenda who murder Christians and others. They demonstrably are not as focused as the KKK was, though they do murder Christians for their religion in my view. My problem is that their Christian attacks \< 320 \<\< 150,000. And northern Nigeria != worldwide. I do feel the situation in Nigeria is unfortunate and that fundamentalists like Boko Haram play a less than constructive role in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/53 "2013-11-11T06:50:40Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ok, so the OP addressed a claim of 150,000 Christians killed each year for their beliefs. Iggy came back with multiple links covering Boko Haram, a militia active in northern Nigeria. The thread began in September 2012. > > I say that when an Islamic group launches a planned attack against attenders of a church service that it can be fairly interpreted as a bigoted attack. So some Christians are indeed murdered for their faith. > > Over at wikipedia, I see that Boko Haram has killed about 320 people per year between 2009 and 2013. They attack and bomb Christians and churches, but also schools and police stations. Remember their name means, “Western education is sinful”. They have assassinated members of the Islamic establishment - not pure enough it seems. They may practice ethnic cleansing against the Hausa and Fulani peoples. Unsurprisingly mainstream Muslim groups denounce them. I don’t know how far outside the mainstream Boko Haram is among Muslims in Nigeria, considering [71% of them favor implementing sharia](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/#how-should-sharia-be-applied). > [@](#): > > So we have one local terrorist group with a varied agenda who murder Christians and others. They demonstrably are not as focused as the KKK was, though they do murder Christians for their religion in my view. My problem is that their Christian attacks \< 320 \<\< 150,000. And northern Nigeria != worldwide. Pakistan church bomb: [Christians mourn 85 killed in Peshawar suicide attack](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/23/pakistan-church-bombings-christian-minority) A wide net was cast to come up with the 150k number, obviously, but the true tally might be closer than we think. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/54 "2013-11-11T07:04:08Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I say that when an Islamic group launches a planned attack against attenders of a church service that it can be fairly interpreted as a bigoted attack. So some Christians are indeed murdered for their faith. And even then it is questionable. Sometimes churches are just convenient places to attack a group of people because they are of a different ethnic group, not because they are Christian. In fact, sometimes the clergy helped with the killings. > [@](#): > > [maykuth.com | rwanda](http://www.maykuth.com/Projects/rwan3.htm) > > KIGALI, Rwanda - 1994 > > While tens of thousands of Catholics died in the genocide, including hundreds of Tutsi priests and nuns, dozens of other clergy willingly took sides and joined the slaughter, according to the London-based human-rights group African Rights. > > Some priests assisted passively by refusing to help Tutsi parishioners or clergy. Some openly encouraged the killers. Others promised parishioners safe havens at churches, which were then attacked in some of the genocide’s most notorious massacres, the chapels littered with mutilated corpses and spilled blood in what African Rights called a “dreadful parody” of the communion ritual. > > A few priests manned roadblocks where Tutsis were arrested. Some took up weapons against Tutsis. One former military chaplain who helped train militiamen wore a gun and a crucifix when he greeted Pope John Paul II’s representative during the genocide. Two other priests were sentenced to death in Rwanda this year for paying workers to bulldoze their church in Nyange, killing 2,000 Tutsis locked inside. These catholic priests who were killed were killed for being of the wrong ethnic group, not for being Christian. And other priests aided in the killing of other ethnic groups. Religion may be one point in the identification of the target group without being the only one, the main one or even a necessary one in which case they were not killed for being Christian as much as killed for being Tutsi. And even “killed by Christians for being Tutsi”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/55 "2013-11-11T07:18:58Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I don’t know how far outside the mainstream Boko Haram is among Muslims in Nigeria, considering [71% of them favor implementing sharia](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/#how-should-sharia-be-applied). Looking at the [Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram) on them they seem to be quite a bit crazier than just that. I especially like this tidbit: > [@](#): > > n a 2009 BBC interview, Mohammed Yusuf, then leader of the group, stated his belief that the concept of a spherical Earth is contrary to Islamic teaching and should be rejected, along with Darwinian evolution and the concept of rain originating from water evaporated by the sun. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/56 "2013-11-11T07:22:16Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I don’t know how far outside the mainstream Boko Haram is among Muslims in Nigeria, considering [71% of them favor implementing sharia](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/#how-should-sharia-be-applied). That page has an interesting chart which shows that in pretty much all Muslim countries, with very few exceptions, between 1/2 and 3/4 of Muslims believe Sharia should apply only to Muslim believers and not to others. This pretty much negates the “they want to impose their religion on us”. They don’t even want to impose their laws which they consider religious. > [@](#): > > Pakistan church bomb: [Christians mourn 85 killed in Peshawar suicide attack](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/23/pakistan-church-bombings-christian-minority) This is clearly a killing of Christians for being Christians but note the main motivation is not that they are Christians, the motivation is a revenge for drone killings which they feel target Muslims. In other words, they are saying: “Until you stop killing Muslims we will kill Christians”. > [@](#): > > A wide net was cast to come up with the 150k number, obviously, but the true tally might be closer than we think. No, it is not close at all. And, again, it is mostly ethnic violence of which religion is just one component. How many Muslims has America killed in the last 12 years? ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/57 "2013-11-11T07:25:06Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Fortunately, no-one’s persecuted for being gay in the US - they’re persecuted for not being straight. The people who persecute gays would just as happily persecute lesbians, bisexuals, transfolk or genderqueers. Like you and a few others, I’m getting a weird sense in this thread that many posters are bending over backwards to find reasons why Christians are not being persecuted for their beliefs anywhere. Is it a reaction to the persistent cries of persecution in countries where they do not face persecution? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/58 "2013-11-11T08:10:14Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > That page has an interesting chart which shows that in pretty much all Muslim countries, with very few exceptions, between 1/2 and 3/4 of Muslims believe Sharia should apply only to Muslim believers and not to others. You are misrepresenting the data. When they say that sharia should only be applied to Muslims this does not mean to Muslim _ **believers** _ as you state but to anyone _born_ Muslim. This becomes clear when you realize that the sharia they favor includes the death penalty for leaving Islam, which makes no sense at all if non-_believers_ are exempt from the laws. [Once a Muslim, Always a Muslim in Malaysia](http://www.asiasentinel.com/society/once-a-muslim-always-a-muslim-in-malaysia/) > [@](#): > > This pretty much negates the “they want to impose their religion on us”. They don’t even want to impose their laws which they consider religious. > This is clearly a killing of Christians for being Christians but note the main motivation is not that they are Christians, the motivation is a revenge for drone killings which they feel target Muslims. In other words, they are saying: “Until you stop killing Muslims we will kill Christians”. The Taliban’s demands include non-Muslim’s giving up the right to live as equal citizens, so it is not that easy to untangle the different motivations. For the most part, the motive is because the drones are very successful against the Taliban leadership, not because they are attacking Muslims per say. In essence they see the Christians (and the Pakistani government) there as part of an _other_ that include the USA, and they are lashing out at them/us for defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/59 "2013-11-11T08:16:35Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > Is it a reaction to the persistent cries of persecution in countries where they do not face persecution? More specifically, I think, it is that the loudest voices condemning persecution of Christians include [those](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHnQ79QWw3Y) who people rightly suspect would do their own persecuting if given the chance. ---
**Author:** ![dolwgan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/919ad9/32.png) [@dolwgan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolwgan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600/60 "2013-11-11T08:23:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s nice of **dolgwan** to show up and demonstrate precisely why the distinction **Kimstu** made is significant. Because while there are certainly many cases of people being killed because they were Christian, there are almost no cases where the people killing the Christian would not also have gladly murdered my queer atheist ass. And yet people like **dolgwan** use those statistics to try to argue that Christianity is _especially_ persecuted, which is patently ridiculous. Miller, can you provide any references to Islamic fundamentalists stating publically that they would “murder your queer atheist ass”? On the other hand, the annihilation of the Christian community in Eygpt is part of the Muslim Brotherhood’s _raison d’etre_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/150-000-christians-are-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/634600.md?page=4)