# 157 Dead Ethipian Airlines Crash in New Boeing 737 Max **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 10, 2019, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885 "2019-03-10T12:05:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/41 "2019-03-13T02:53:17Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Seems a little too detailed and consistent to be confusion. Quite possibly so. I’m just saying that witness recollections of sudden unexpected events can be notoriously unreliable, and these accounts are neither indicative of root cause nor do they seem to correspond with the statement of the Ethiopian Airlines CEO who was presumably privy to the ATC conversations. There may have been structural failure following unknown causative events. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > You’ve obviously never used Windows 🙂 LOL! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/42 "2019-03-13T03:03:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This could be another Concorde. Engine picks up FOD and comes apart after rotation. If the PIC didn’t have solid control of the plane and tried to circle back then it gets ugly pretty quick. A single engine failure wouldn’t cause a crash though, right? What are the chances of runway FOD causing a double engine failure? > [@](#): > > If it was making strange noises, smoking, and stuff was raining down then I don’t think it was a software issue. [SAS Flight 751](https://fearoflanding.com/accidents/accident-reports/the-christmas-miracle-part-two/) was an engine failure caused by a software feature that the pilots didn’t know about. Though if you are saying it doesn’t sound like something caused by MCAS, you have a point. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/43 "2019-03-13T03:09:08Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > Might US airlines have to ground them because passengers won’t want to fly on them? I wonder when/if that becomes a factor. Yup, money talks. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/44 "2019-03-13T04:12:00Z")
> [@](#): > > With airlines and governments around the world shutting down Boeing 737 Max airplanes after a second deadly crash of the aircraft, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao is not only resisting the calls to ground the plane, **she even flew one of the planes back to Washington Tuesday afternoon.** > **[Feeling pressure to ground Boeing planes, US Transportation Secretary flies...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/13/us-transportation-secretary-elaine-chao-flies-on-boeing-737-max-8.html)** > > U.S. Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao is not only resisting the calls to ground the plane, she flew one of the plane back to Washington Tuesday afternoon. Such bravery! ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/45 "2019-03-13T04:36:07Z")
Southwest Airlines just began service to Hawaii, and while they have not used this plane yet, plans are to use it almost exclusively in the near future. They seem to have ordered a bunch of them. This may not be good for Southwest. But local Hawaiian Airlines may be happy this is happening to the new competition. So far, only one small Canadian airline flies the plane to here. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/46 "2019-03-13T08:24:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Obviously we have no idea why Flight 302 went down, but obviously that’s a hell of a suspicious coincidence. Not really. Given that there are about 400 of them in service (another 4600 on order), and they typically make 1-3 takeoffs per day, my very rough estimate is that there have been around 50,000 Boeing 737 takeoffs between these 2 incidents. I’d want a bit more info first. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/47 "2019-03-13T13:23:53Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Not really. > Given that there are about 400 of them in service (another 4600 on order), and they typically make 1-3 takeoffs per day, my very rough estimate is that there have been around 50,000 Boeing 737 takeoffs between these 2 incidents. I’d want a bit more info first. I’m guessing one crash per 50K flights is a much higher incidence rate than for other types of planes. OTOH, it’s still far too low to draw any statistical conclusions. Aircraft types can be grounded after a single incident, if a glaring flaw is revealed that clearly threatens safety. The cause of the Lion Air crash is pretty well understood at this point, but the cause of the Ethiopian crash is not - and the eyewitness reports of smoke and noises in the minutes prior to impact of the latter suggest that its cause isn’t the same as for the Lion Air crash. IOW, not a clear pattern that justifies grounding all planes of the same type (unless the pattern that comes out of all this is that the entire airplane, from nose to tail, is a giant piece of shit made of cardboard and bailing twine). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/48 "2019-03-13T14:33:05Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > A single engine failure wouldn’t cause a crash though, right? What are the chances of runway FOD causing a double engine failure? I would imagine that depends on the type and quantity of FOD on the runway. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/49 "2019-03-13T14:47:55Z")
Vacation charter airline Sunwing [grounds its MAX 8 fleet for “evolving operational reasons”](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/air-canada-boeing-737-max-8-uk-airspace-halifax-london-1.5052946). Translation: “we want to keep flying them, but they’re banned at all our usual destinations”. This event has apparently taken us to new frontiers of literary creativity. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/50 "2019-03-13T15:17:32Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > There’s been some talk around here that the quality of Boeing’s airplanes has declined since more and more parts are manufactured all over the world and shipped here for assembly. I don’t know the basis for comparison as in when this started happening on a large scale. That is standard in the aircraft industry, and Airbus does it as well. And it has been done for quite a while. I am more inclined to look for a design problem, possibly in software. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/51 "2019-03-13T16:10:42Z")
Canada has formally ordered all MAX 8s grounded. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/52 "2019-03-13T18:37:45Z")
Looks like MAX 8 has just been grounded in the US too, per comments from POTUS. Only twitter reports so far > ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/53 "2019-03-13T18:58:47Z")
CNN says the same thing (reporting President’s comments): > **[Ethiopian crash: Boeing 737 Max 8 planes grounded - latest updates](https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/boeing-737-max-8-ethiopia-airlines-crash/index.html)** > > An investigation is underway after a Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft crashed Sunday in Ethiopia, killing all 157 people on board. Follow here for the latest news. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/54 "2019-03-13T19:14:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX. However, after consultation with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined - out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft’s safety - to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft. Some might doubt this statement. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/55 "2019-03-13T21:40:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Canada has formally ordered all MAX 8s grounded. > [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Looks like MAX 8 has just been grounded in the US too, per comments from POTUS. > > Only twitter reports so far > > [https://twitter.com/W7VOA/status/1105898953034424320](https://twitter.com/W7VOA/status/1105898953034424320) The grounding in the US came several hours after the Canadian announcement. If I had not been following these developments I would not be aware of the level of incompetence that exists among our political leaders. As recently as yesterday the Minister for Transport Canada, Marc Garneau, was going on about how awesomely safe the 737 MAX was, and how there was no need to call for a grounding. Today’s announcement was touted as being based on “new information” that he had received from his panel of experts. What new information, you ask? [The exact same information that was widely known three freaking days ago!](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21529760&postcount=8) When he made the announcement Garneau cited the exact same reasoning, practically word for word! One also wonders how come Boeing is suddenly overcome by an “abundance of caution” based on information that was available right from the start. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/56 "2019-03-13T21:43:32Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > A single engine failure wouldn’t cause a crash though, right? What are the chances of runway FOD causing a double engine failure? > > [SAS Flight 751](https://fearoflanding.com/accidents/accident-reports/the-christmas-miracle-part-two/) was an engine failure caused by a software feature that the pilots didn’t know about. > > Though if you are saying it doesn’t sound like something caused by MCAS, you have a point. Most fatal airline crashes are a series of problems that act on each other to make things worse. A loss of engine due to FOD that causes an additional failure on top of a software issue. Boeing is a major player in the aviation business so the US government should be all over this in terms getting to the bottom of it. This is another de Haviland Comet in every sense of the word. We’ve already grounded the plane in the US so it’s universally grounded. Now is the time to throw every effort into figuring it out. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/57 "2019-03-13T22:18:43Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Some might doubt this statement. FAA Official: Canada just grounded your planes, making the U.S. the only country left where they can fly. Are you going to put your planes on the ground or do we have to order you to? Boeing Official: Ummm, can you give us two hours to get back to you with an answer? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/58 "2019-03-13T23:58:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Most fatal airline crashes are a series of problems that act on each other to make things worse. A loss of engine due to FOD that causes an additional failure on top of a software issue. I was just thinking about this possibility. It could be that the eyewitness accounts are accurate and something else started the problem, and possibly that sensor got knocked out due to fire/whatever it was, which turned an otherwise resolvable problem (e.g. land immediately) into an unsolvable problem (due to sensor/software issue). ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/59 "2019-03-14T01:10:51Z")
Ethiopia has [refused to send the black boxes to the US](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-ethiopia-refuses-to-send-black-box-from-crashed-boeing-737-max-8-to/) despite requests from American officials and instead have [requested that France analyze them](https://www.yahoo.com/news/france-analyze-ethiopian-airlines-flight-recorders-spokesman-201802412--finance.html), to which France has agreed. This after their first choice, Germany, declined due to lack of proper software. No reason explicitly stated, but not hard to imagine that the Ethiopians don’t trust an American analysis to be objective since Boeing is taking so much heat. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885/60 "2019-03-14T02:13:06Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I was just thinking about this possibility. It could be that the eyewitness accounts are accurate and something else started the problem, and possibly that sensor got knocked out due to fire/whatever it was, which turned an otherwise resolvable problem (e.g. land immediately) into an unsolvable problem (due to sensor/software issue). Commercial pilots can correct me but auto pilot systems allow for a variety of climb options. They could be programmed for angle of climb, rate of climb etc… While this is engaged the crew should be monitoring the flight as if they were physically controlling the plane. That means watching the heading, rate of climb, air speed and other instruments to ensure they are within their flight envelope and proper course. It would be easy to get distracted or flat out not pay attention to what’s going on because the plane is doing all of the flying. It would also be easy to over-focus on an emergency with the expectations that the plane will do it’s thing while you sort out the problem. Throw a quirky bit of software into the mix and now you’re fighting to control a mechanical issue made worse by software that’s determined to do something you don’t want it to do. once you’ve crossed a threshold of control it usually takes some altitude to correct it. This flight didn’t have the altitude available to fix things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/157-dead-ethipian-airlines-crash-in-new-boeing-737-max/830885.md?page=4)