# 16 year old girl hanged because she had a 'sharp tongue' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2004, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944 "2004-08-22T05:08:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Creative\_Munster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Creative\_Munster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creative_Munster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/21 "2004-08-22T08:20:54Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > Truly disgusting. > > But before we (in the US) get on our high horse, remember that a lot of European countries consider us barbarians for still having the death penalty. > > Killing a little girl for a “sharp tongue” or killing a (perhaps innocent) person who may have had an incompetant lawyer and a jury of idiots. Who are the scum now? > > Might be wise to re-consider the death penalty in the US before we start condemning it in other countries for what they consider heinous crimes. You are a fucking idiot. You hate this country so damn much that you want to compare the death penalty in the United States to this particular case in Iran? It’s not surprising. Whenever a thread like this is posted, there is always some jackass who has to make the remark, “But don’t forget how fucked up things are here. Don’t be too judgemental. We are backwards ass and barbaric also.” Your post made me regurgitate a bit in my mouth. Jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/22 "2004-08-22T08:24:52Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I Any country that can’t make the distinction between killing an innocent teenager who had been raped (although of course it apparently can’t be proved because the rapist wasn’t kind enough to do it in front of four Islamic men) and killing someone who has deprived another human being of his life (not to mention the pain and agony inflicted on the family members and loved ones of the one who got murdered) isn’t worth paying the slightest attention to, in my opinion!. We have found something we can agree on. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/23 "2004-08-22T08:29:13Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > This is just one reason why I don’t buy the whole “The moralities of one culture is neither better nor worse than those of others” worldview. Some acts are just wrong, regardless of which culture perpetuates it. Sometimes, the culture itself is just plain wrong, and this is a perfect example. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > I get so damn disgusted with these people! How anyone can just write this kind of crap off as “just another culture” is beyond me. Nobody justifies murder as just another culture, you fucking dumbasses. That’s used for different customs and other stuff that’s different but excusable. Learn the fucking difference before you get up on the tired old anti-PC high horse. It’ll be a real revelation to those libruls that murder is bad, thanks for bringing it up. You jackasses. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/24 "2004-08-22T10:03:37Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I’m not supposed to have an opinion of this as long as it’s a culture I don’t fully understand. Oh bullshit. Moral relativism doesn’t mean you can’t have an opinion of your own. I am a moral relativist, in that I understand that there are aspects of my culture that I think are benign, that other cultures find barbaric or morally untenable. I merely acknowledge that it how it feels to exist in a different moral framework is unknowable. This position doesn’t stop me from, for example, having campaigned against the Sharia law in Nigeria that called for Amina Lawal to be stoned to death for having children out of marriage. By my - and clearly the vast majority of western cultures’ - moral framework, this Iranian practice is heinous and barbaric and sickening. It’s about how express your revulsion: whether you smugly express it as an extension of fundamental human morals (that just so happen to coincide with your own; what a coincidence!) - and by extension the further a culture strays from these fundamentals, the less valid the culture is - or whether you realise that you cannot have any genuine appreciation of other cultures’ mores, but that _in your opinion_ this is appalling. > [@Creative\_Munster](#): > > You hate this country so damn much Heh, it’s ages since I’ve seen this cliché. 😃 Why do you hate America? Why?!! Yup, this European for one finds your death penalty barbaric and bloodthirsty, especially - but not exclusively - the execution of minors and mentally disabled people. Not on a par with the Iranian situation, but on the edge of the same ballpark. **DMark** is completely correct. And those who are calling for the eradication of Iranian culture because of this horrible aspect of it need to examine _their_ moral frameworks. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/25 "2004-08-22T10:05:24Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Yep. The world would be better off if this culture was extirpated. Maybe, and yet this is where Bush and Ashcroft and Co. would have us headed if only they had their druthers. It’s the Christian Way after all. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lodoen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b3f665/32.png) [@Jeff\_Lodoen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lodoen)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/26 "2004-08-22T10:14:22Z")
> [@I Love Me](#): > > Maybe, and yet this is where Bush and Ashcroft and Co. would have us headed if only they had their druthers. It’s the Christian Way after all. What? Show me the logical stretch here, please. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/27 "2004-08-22T10:50:11Z")
> [@Jeff Lodoen](#): > > What? Show me the logical stretch here, please. Or not. Please don’t turn this into **another** Bush-bashing thread! ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/28 "2004-08-22T11:58:12Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Well, I’ll use this as my own test of muticulturalism. I’ve have it beaten over my head for 20 years that we must never judge someone else’s beliefs. After all, I could never understand the complexities of a foreign culture and their social norms, so I should never judge. > > Kill away, I’m not supposed to have an opinion of this as long as it’s a culture I don’t fully understand. (And especially if it’s a Middle Eastern culture) Being an American, I’m wrong in my opinion anyway. And probably to blame somehow. Yes, because that’s _exactly_ what’s meant by multiculturalism. Accepting as right and proper the execution of a teenaged (apparent) rape victim in Iran is mandated by those in the United States who favor basic non-judgmentalism toward other cultures and traditions. Perhaps the reason you specifically were told not to judge other cultures is that you lack the critical thinking skills necessary to make the “it’s OK not to support murdering teenagers in the name of cultural respect” distinctions. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/29 "2004-08-22T11:58:24Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I don’t think so…not even a little bit! > > Any country that can’t make the distinction between killing an innocent teenager who had been raped (although of course it apparently can’t be proved because the rapist wasn’t kind enough to do it in front of four Islamic men) and **killing someone who has deprived another human being of his life** (not to mention the pain and agony inflicted on the family members and loved ones of the one who got murdered) isn’t worth paying the slightest attention to, in my opinion! On the part that I’ve bolded, I agree with you. The problem is, when we put them on trial for their lives, we often _don’t_ know for sure that they committed the crime; that’s why there’s a trial. And it’s a matter of public record that many capital defendants in the U.S. have gone on trial with appallingly inadequate counsel; that police and prosecutors have frequently hid exculpatory evidence from defense counsel (when they had the brains to seek it) and not been tried or even reprimanded for it; that in one state near the top of the list for executions (my beloved Commonwealth of Virginia, dammitall) closes the door on retrials due to new evidence coming to light _a mere three weeks after conviction_; that states (notably Virginia again) have blocked investigations into the claims of innocence of those executed, to preserve the thin truth of the claim that “nobody executed in the US since resumption of the death penalty has ever been proven innocent”; and on and on. Yes, this particular execution in Iran (and Shari’a law in general) is worthy of condemnation regardless of how our system works, but our system has problems too, systemic problems that go far beyond a few mistakes and human errors here and there. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/30 "2004-08-22T12:58:01Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > AFAIK, this happens not unfrequently in Islamist countries. This happened in Nigeria, at least in two cases which were widely reported (the proof of adultery being that the woman was pregnant). But I would need more examples than that to state that it happens “not unfrequently in islamist countries”. “Honor killings” seem to be much more of an issue. As for this girl, I too wondered what she was tried for. I also read between the lines that she could have been victim of rape, but lacking evidences that under Iranian law, she could be sentenced in such a case, it doesn’t appear obvious to me. One could as well “read between the lines” that she has been sentenced for say, drug consumption. I think the reason why rape comes to mind is that we’re accustomed to associate injustice in some muslim country with behavior or offenses related to sex, or with the conditions of women. But there’s no obvious evidence in this particular case, barring further informations. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/31 "2004-08-22T13:03:48Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > As for this girl, I too wondered what she was tried for. I also read between the lines that she could have been victim of rape, but lacking evidences that under Iranian law, she could be sentenced in such a case, it doesn’t appear obvious to me. One could as well “read between the lines” that she has been sentenced for say, drug consumption. I think the reason why rape comes to mind is that we’re accustomed to associate injustice in some muslim country with behavior or offenses related to sex, or with the conditions of women. But there’s no obvious evidence in this particular case, barring further informations. (From the article) She told the religious judge, Haji Rezaii, that he should punish the main perpetrators of moral corruption not the victims. “Moral Corruption” is what they officially call rape there. And her daring to tell the judge that it’s the rapist and not the rapee that should be punished is most likely the “sharp tongue” that titles the thread. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/32 "2004-08-22T13:23:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody justifies murder as just another culture, you fucking dumbasses. First of all, hold your tongue. And second, there ARE people who nisist that the morality of other cultures is just as valid as our morality, and vice versa. This necessarily means endorsing murders which are committed in keeping with those cultural norms. Heck, in GD, we have repeatedly seen people argue that there are no moral absolutes, on the grounds that each culture has its own morality. So yes, despite your protestatiosn, there are people who are revulsed by murder, but who believe that it is justified if it is part of one’s cultural norm. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/33 "2004-08-22T13:26:18Z")
> [@Silentgoldfish](#): > > (From the article) She told the religious judge, Haji Rezaii, that he should punish the main perpetrators of moral corruption not the victims. > > “Moral Corruption” is what they officially call rape there. And her daring to tell the judge that it’s the rapist and not the rapee that should be punished is most likely the “sharp tongue” that titles the thread. I noticed she mentionned that. But moral corruption could include a lot of things. She could have accused the mullahs, or the judges themselves of being the “moral corrupters”, for instance. Consumming drug is also moral corruption. That’s why I picked this example at random. I’m sory I’m not going to take your word for “moral corruption” meaning exclusively “rape” in Iran. I would need some article actually explaining what she was tried for. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/34 "2004-08-22T13:29:02Z")
Googling her name turned no results and I didn’t find a mention on amnesty international site, either. Any taker? ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/35 "2004-08-22T13:39:45Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I noticed she mentionned that. But moral corruption could include a lot of things. She could have accused the mullahs, or the judges themselves of being the “moral corrupters”, for instance. Consumming drug is also moral corruption. That’s why I picked this example at random. > > I’m sory I’m not going to take your word for “moral corruption” meaning exclusively “rape” in Iran. I would need some article actually explaining what she was tried for. Trawling google for a cite looks like it going to take more than 2 minutes so I’m going to bow out with a fair enough. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/36 "2004-08-22T13:43:36Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Heck, in GD, we have repeatedly seen people argue that there are no moral absolutes, on the grounds that each culture has its own morality. So yes, despite your protestatiosn, there are people who are revulsed by murder, but who believe that it is justified if it is part of one’s cultural norm. Yet again you fail to grasp the difference between asserting that there are no moral absolutes - which I do indeed assert, based on the evidence of the whole of human history - and possessing personal and cultural morals - which I also do. Please read my previous post for further clarification. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/37 "2004-08-22T13:57:30Z")
If your country has a policy of inflicting death for one crime and different country has a policy of inflicting death for a different crime, if you criticise them surely it is just a competition to see whose shit smells worse? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/38 "2004-08-22T14:07:03Z")
Oh boy, here we go. This is not about Bush, even by now you now my views on that. It is about a kangaroo court that executes victims while letting the real criminal go free. Murder, plain and simple. Saying it is a religious or cultural thing does not work. The Koran does not say to kill the innocent victims. It’s like I alluded to in another Pit thread, cultural diversity and cultural tolerance is too often used as a “They can be total shit scumbags and we have to understand it, but we have to walk on eggshells lest we hurt their feelings.” It has nothing to do with cultures or religions, or even basic justice. Likewise, saying the U.S. has a death penalty does not mean we should “understand” this either. At least, the U.S. tries to only execute the criminal and not the victim - I am completely against death penalties, but again, at least here there is an attempt to Not kill the victim while letting the perpetrator go scot free. At this point, I can understand why my ancestors in Sicily had a vendetta system, even though it was a bad thing (but as moral relativists we can’t say that). In cases where no other justice was possible, they took care of business themselves. It’s a “cultural thing” so it’s perfectly OK(?). First on the hit list would have been the rapist AND the judge. The line of reasoning being used (cultural/moral relativism) would also say it was OK for Nazis to kill Jews. It’s just those kooky Nazis, but who are we to judge them. It’s a Nazi thing. They are just expresing themselves. Bullshit. I have to side with Starving Artist, Creative Munster, Spooje, Duffer and JThunder. ---
**Author:** ![Spree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@Spree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spree)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/39 "2004-08-22T14:26:23Z")
It disturbs me that some people in this thread are calling for the extermination of an entire culture because of practices (admittedly disgusting and barbaric) that make up only one aspect of that culture. ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944/40 "2004-08-22T14:27:58Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Oh boy, here we go. This is not about Bush, even by now you now my views on that. It is about a kangaroo court that executes victims while letting the real criminal go free. Murder, plain and simple. Saying it is a religious or cultural thing does not work. The Koran does not say to kill the innocent victims. It’s like I alluded to in another Pit thread, cultural diversity and cultural tolerance is too often used as a “They can be total shit scumbags and we have to understand it, but we have to walk on eggshells lest we hurt their feelings.” It has nothing to do with cultures or religions, or even basic justice. Likewise, saying the U.S. has a death penalty does not mean we should “understand” this either. At least, the U.S. tries to only execute the criminal and not the victim - I am completely against death penalties, but again, at least here there is an attempt to Not kill the victim while letting the perpetrator go scot free. At this point, I can understand why my ancestors in Sicily had a vendetta system, even though it was a bad thing (but as moral relativists we can’t say that). In cases where no other justice was possible, they took care of business themselves. It’s a “cultural thing” so it’s perfectly OK(?). First on the hit list would have been the rapist AND the judge. > The line of reasoning being used (cultural/moral relativism) would also say it was OK for Nazis to kill Jews. It’s just those kooky Nazis, but who are we to judge them. It’s a Nazi thing. They are just expresing themselves. Bullshit. > I have to side with Starving Artist, Creative Munster, Spooje, Duffer and JThunder. You can be against these practices and still recognize where they come from, a different moral framework. Ours may be superior in a lot of ways, but it ain’t perfect. I don’t think anyone in this thread is arguing that you shouldn’t judge Nazis, and should let them murder jews as an act of expression, and that seems to be quite a strawman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/16-year-old-girl-hanged-because-she-had-a-sharp-tongue/260944.md?page=3)