# 1776 = noble forefathers! 2019 TX or CA secessionists= treasonous traitors! Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413 "2019-07-02T19:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/1 "2019-07-02T19:33:21Z")
Title pretty much sums it up. 1776 yes you had your “reasons” but pretty much the same as citizens of California or Texas might use in 2019- basically, our mother country doesnt have our specific best interests at heart, they are trying to impose their ideals on us, and we have different ideals. No one in 1776 was experiencing human rights violations or anything like that. Assuming I am not operating from a faulty premise, I think most would agree CA or TX wanting out in 2019 would be seen as traitors, yet those in 1776 are seen as heroes- why? ETA: if some kind moderator could add an “s” to treasonous in the title to make me look less dumb, that would be great! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/2 "2019-07-02T19:37:40Z")
I think [John Harington answered this question for all time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_Dare_Call_It_Treason): > [@](#): > > Treason doth never prosper, what’s the reason? > For if it prosper, none dare call it treason. See also: “freedom fighter” vs. “terrorist”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/3 "2019-07-02T19:43:17Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > No one in 1776 was experiencing human rights violations or anything like that. Oh, dear … > [@](#): > > Assuming I am not operating from a faulty premise Not a good assumption. > [@](#): > > I think most would agree CA or TX wanting out in 2019 would be seen as traitors, yet those in 1776 are seen as heroes- why? Do you know the difference between a state and a colony? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/4 "2019-07-02T19:44:57Z")
“Taxation without representation is tyranny” In 1776, the colonists were subjects of the British crown. While there was a Parliament, we did not elect any representatives to it, and had no say in how we were ruled. Today, California, Texas and the U.S. are all representative democracies. I may not agree with all of the decisions made by the Federal government, but I elected Dianne Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi and Kamala Harris, and I know that they have input into those decisions. I didn’t vote for the current president, but I voted for the previous one, and my state played a role in ensuring his election. That’s not to say that there is no room for improvement in the way we are governed. But I’m not sure that we have reached the point experienced by the founders: "…whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of [the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness], it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/5 "2019-07-02T19:47:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Oh, dear … > > Not a good assumption. > > Do you know the difference between a state and a colony? Yes I do know the difference, not sure how it is relevant to the OP though. And you equate unwanted taxes with human rights violations? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/6 "2019-07-02T19:49:06Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > Title pretty much sums it up. 1776 yes you had your “reasons” but pretty much the same as citizens of California or Texas might use in 2019- basically, our mother country doesnt have our specific best interests at heart, they are trying to impose their ideals on us, and we have different ideals. No one in 1776 was experiencing human rights violations or anything like that. Assuming I am not operating from a faulty premise, I think most would agree CA or TX wanting out in 2019 would be seen as traitors, yet those in 1776 are seen as heroes- why? > ETA: if some kind moderator could add an “s” to treasonous in the title to make me look less dumb, that would be great! The 13 colonies had no representation in the English parliament at the time, they asked for it, were denied, so they declared independence to govern themselves. The southern states were (over)represented in the USA’s government, they didn’t like the way the other states voted and so they tried to secede. You can’t have a democracy if the losing side of each election will just create their own country. If you lose, you deal with it. I don’t really see much of a parallelism between the 2 situations really. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/7 "2019-07-02T19:52:32Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > " > That’s not to say that there is no room for improvement in the way we are governed. But I’m not sure that we have reached the point experienced by the founders: "…whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of [the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness], it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. I think it could be argued depending on the party of the current President, either CA or TX could say the same, the govt is not a govt for their people, and they have the same right to abolish it? That the current president is of a different party then their elected governor? Wouldn’t CA citizens of 2019 say under Trump, their safety and happiness is threatened? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/8 "2019-07-02T19:54:25Z")
Um, the British Crown in 1776 **did** view the rebellious colonists as traitors. And if a modern-day TX or CA secession movement did succeed in establishing an independent state, Texans or Californians a hundred years from now would look on the secessionists as heroic liberators. Because pretty much any kind of secession or independence movement will be labeled treason by those whose authority it is rejecting, and if successful, will be labeled a heroic feat of liberation by the heirs of the “traitors”/“liberators”. Not sure why the OP seems to find this so mysterious. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/9 "2019-07-02T19:58:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Um, the British Crown in 1776 **did** view the rebellious colonists as traitors. And if a modern-day TX or CA secession movement did succeed in establishing an independent state, Texans or Californians a hundred years from now would look on the secessionists as heroic liberators. > > Because pretty much any kind of secession or independence movement will be labeled treason by those whose authority it is rejecting, and if successful, will be labeled a heroic feat of liberation by the heirs of the “traitors”/“liberators”. Not sure why the OP seems to find this so mysterious. The OP is asking why US citizens in 2019 would find CA or TX secessionists wrong, but those in 1776 heroes- my mistake for the lack of clarity. Benedict Arnold is infamous for his treason, Ben Franklin is praised for his? (yes, not for same reasons). ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/10 "2019-07-02T20:01:43Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > Title pretty much sums it up. 1776 yes you had your “reasons” but pretty much the same as citizens of California or Texas might use in 2019- basically, our mother country doesnt have our specific best interests at heart, they are trying to impose their ideals on us, and we have different ideals. No one in 1776 was experiencing human rights violations or anything like that. Assuming I am not operating from a faulty premise, I think most would agree CA or TX wanting out in 2019 would be seen as traitors, yet those in 1776 are seen as heroes- why? > ETA: if some kind moderator could add an “s” to treasonous in the title to make me look less dumb, that would be great! No shit, guy! The last thing Texas needs is an administration who puts **concentration camps** in our great State, nowhere in accordance with our ideals. Let’s rebel against the… (check notes) … Republicans! ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/11 "2019-07-02T20:04:08Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > I think it could be argued depending on the party of the current President, either CA or TX could say the same, the govt is not a govt for their people, and they have the same right to abolish it? That the current president is of a different party then their elected governor? Wouldn’t CA citizens of 2019 say under Trump, their safety and happiness is threatened? It’s not “Whenever any government official…” it’s “Whenever any Form of Government…” In a representative democracy, we expect that the officials in power will not always be the ones who represent our particular point of view. But in the U.S., we have put in place a system of checks and balances designed to ensure that our rights are still preserved. As **Frodo** said, if you broke up the country every time an election didn’t go your way, there would be no democracy, and eventually you’d have anarchy. Do you think that the Form of Government that currently governs the U.S. is so destructive to the rights of Californians or Texans that it needs to be changed? What are you suggesting as an alternative? ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/12 "2019-07-02T20:07:37Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > It’s not “Whenever any government official…” it’s “Whenever any Form of Government…” > > In a representative democracy, we expect that the officials in power will not always be the ones who represent our particular point of view. But in the U.S., we have put in place a system of checks and balances designed to ensure that our rights are still preserved. As **Frodo** said, if you broke up the country every time an election didn’t go your way, there would be no democracy, and eventually you’d have anarchy. > > Do you think that the Form of Government that currently governs the U.S. is so destructive to the rights of Californians or Texans that it needs to be changed? What are you suggesting as an alternative? The OP is meant to address the hypocrisy of thinking what happened in 1776 is a good thing, but if same basic thing happened now, it would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/13 "2019-07-02T20:25:56Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > The OP is meant to address the hypocrisy of thinking what happened in 1776 is a good thing, but if same basic thing happened now, it would be wrong. Yes, that was obvious. People have pointed out why they’re fundamentally not the same. The 13 colonies were colonies, with no say in their government, not locally, not centrally. California and Texas not agreeing with federal policy does not compare. If you want to argue that any subdivision of any nation should be free to secede, you should start the discussion with that instead of trying to play gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/14 "2019-07-02T20:28:18Z")
Or, imagine it is 2039- Republicans have been in charge for the last twenty plus years, resulting in a large party shift which now has 49 majority republican states, and only California as liberal- all non- CA liberals got sick of their home state and moved there. US is now all abortions illegal, all guns legal, death penalty standard for any murder, illegal immigrants persecuted, etc. California still has elected officials, but they have no effect on any US policy as it is always 49-1. Everything the US now stands for is nothing CA citizens stand for. Would they then be wrong to want secession? ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/15 "2019-07-02T20:32:16Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Yes, that was obvious. People have pointed out why they’re fundamentally not the same. The 13 colonies were colonies, with no say in their government, not locally, not centrally. California and Texas not agreeing with federal policy does not compare. > > If you want to argue that any subdivision of any nation should be free to secede, you should start the discussion with that instead of trying to play gotcha. Not really gotcha if the gotcha is noted upfront. Not seeing the difference in no representation at all vs. representation that is ineffective due to being outvoted- if the US goes to 49-1 republican vs democrat states and stays there, isn’t impotent representation the same as none? They would have a say in road paving issues but not real matters then, and should be ok with that? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/16 "2019-07-02T20:32:28Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > The OP is asking why US citizens in 2019 would find CA or TX secessionists wrong, but those in 1776 heroes I really don’t think any more complicated explanation is required than the natural tendency to think that our forefathers rebelling against sovereign authority to create the state we have now was good, while our contemporaries rebelling against our existing sovereign authority is bad. Sure, there are differences of policy and principle between the two situations, but if you’re asking for the predominant reason why Americans in general tend to regard them differently, I think John Harington’s answer is essentially correct. Nor do I think that that attitude is necessarily hypocritical. We can have a positive view of a historical revolution because from our perspective it worked out okay, while still being prudently opposed to launching a new revolution that we do **not** know will work out okay. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/17 "2019-07-02T20:32:41Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > Or, imagine it is 2039- Republicans have been in charge for the last twenty plus years, resulting in a large party shift which now has 49 majority republican states, and only California as liberal- all non- CA liberals got sick of their home state and moved there. US is now all abortions illegal, all guns legal, death penalty standard for any murder, illegal immigrants persecuted, etc. California still has elected officials, but they have no effect on any US policy as it is always 49-1. Everything the US now stands for is nothing CA citizens stand for. > > Would they then be wrong to want secession? It’s not wrong to want secession. So, the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/18 "2019-07-02T20:42:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I really don’t think any more complicated explanation is required than the natural tendency to think that our forefathers rebelling against sovereign authority to create the state we have now was good, while our contemporaries rebelling against our existing sovereign authority is bad. > > Sure, there are differences of policy and principle between the two situations, but if you’re asking for the predominant reason why Americans in general tend to regard them differently, I think John Harington’s answer is essentially correct. > > Nor do I think that that attitude is necessarily hypocritical. We can have a positive view of a historical revolution because from our perspective it worked out okay, while still being prudently opposed to launching a new revolution that we do **not** know will work out okay. Fair enough, you have a differing opinion excellently stated that I cannot argue with. Only thing though, it is similar but not similar to Brexit- there doesn’t _have_ to automatically be a war for a state to secede. The GDP would shrink and other things of that sort of course, which the US wouldn’t allow probably. ---
**Author:** ![UnwittingAmericans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d9b06d/32.png) [@UnwittingAmericans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwittingAmericans)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/19 "2019-07-02T20:47:01Z")
You may have skipped over this. > [@](#): > > He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. > > He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. > > He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. > > He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. > > He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people. > > He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within. > > He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands. > > He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers. > > He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. > > He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance. > > He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures. > > He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power. > > He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: > > For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: > > For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States: > > For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world: > > For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: > > For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury: > > For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences: > > For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies > > For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments: > > For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever. > > He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us. > > He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. > > He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation. > > He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands. > > He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. > > In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. > > Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413/20 "2019-07-02T20:55:24Z")
> [@UnwittingAmericans](#): > > You may have skipped over this. Not at all- those are reasons/excuses/justifications by a group of people about to commit treason- most criminals can come up with reasons for their crimes- are you stating just because this was written, everything in it is 100% accurate, unbiased and irrefutable? You don’t think Britain could refute or explain the reason for some of these? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1776-noble-forefathers-2019-tx-or-ca-secessionists-treasonous-traitors-why/836413.md?page=2)