# 18,000 Palestinians are starving. Will Europe explode in protest? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094 "2014-08-08T05:39:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/141 "2014-08-11T16:48:45Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > But there in no reason to go into that level of detail. Isn’t it enough to say that the citizens of a country are primarily responsible for what their government does? At least that fits in with the thread at hand. No, that’s not reasonable. People are responsible for the foreseeable outcomes of their own choices. If I consistently make choices that make it more difficult for my government to drone-strike weddings or whatever, I am not responsible when they drone-strike weddings. The people who are responsible for those drone strikes are the people who have made choices that facilitate those drone strikes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/142 "2014-08-11T16:59:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/bigbadterr/BuwrR0CIgAAtxL\_\_zps6c99817b.jpg](http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/bigbadterr/BuwrR0CIgAAtxL__zps6c99817b.jpg) > > perfect Hahahah, you’re right, it’s not like anyone ever says that we need to stop the genocide in Syria, because that doesn’t involve Jews! Oh, wait, stop the presses, this just in, [you’re](http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/21/opinion/abdulhamid-ballen-syria/) [an](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelnazirali/100282928/the-west-must-face-the-evil-that-has-revealed-itself-in-the-iraq-genocide/) [idiot](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/britains-cameron-faces-growing-calls-to-join-the-us-in-bombing-iraq/2014/08/11/036a5311-fa50-4a2e-b205-3ebbed16015a_story.html). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/143 "2014-08-11T17:00:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Hahahah, you’re right, it’s not like anyone ever says that we need to stop the genocide in Syria, because that doesn’t involve Jews! > > Oh, wait, stop the presses, this just in, [you’re an idiot](http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/21/opinion/abdulhamid-ballen-syria/). Oh that’s too bad ☹ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/144 "2014-08-11T17:04:14Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Isn’t it enough to say that the citizens of a country are primarily responsible for what their government does? At least that fits in with the thread at hand. Do you not understand that this is exactly the argument that Hamas and other terrorist groups use to justify attacks on civilians of the countries they see as enemies? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/145 "2014-08-11T17:12:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Oh that’s too bad ☹ It really is. What’s extra-awful is your complete inability to respond to anything substantive people say to you–such as giving you three counterexamples to your fatuous graphic. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/146 "2014-08-11T17:15:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It really is. What’s extra-awful is your complete inability to respond to anything substantive people say to you–such as giving you three counterexamples to your fatuous graphic. Three? You have one - ooh boy, a strongly worded article on CNN. 7 months ago - is that the latest you could find? I am sure Assad is running scared. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/147 "2014-08-11T17:27:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Do you not understand that this is exactly the argument that Hamas and other terrorist groups use to justify attacks on civilians of the countries they see as enemies? Yes, but their reasoning is wrong. Other countries aren’t their enemies, modern civilization is. That they fight it because of their belief in ancient fables makes them primarily responsible for their actions and the consequences that result from them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/148 "2014-08-11T17:27:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/bigbadterr/BuwrR0CIgAAtxL\_\_zps6c99817b.jpg](http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/bigbadterr/BuwrR0CIgAAtxL__zps6c99817b.jpg) > > perfect Hey, congratulations! You found out that there’s someone out there stupid enough to make the same gross logical flaws that you do! This must be a great relief to you, after so many years of being alone. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/149 "2014-08-11T17:30:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Three? Yes, three: > [@LHOD](#): > > [you’re](http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/21/opinion/abdulhamid-ballen-syria/) [an](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelnazirali/100282928/the-west-must-face-the-evil-that-has-revealed-itself-in-the-iraq-genocide/) [idiot](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/britains-cameron-faces-growing-calls-to-join-the-us-in-bombing-iraq/2014/08/11/036a5311-fa50-4a2e-b205-3ebbed16015a_story.html). > [@Terr](#): > > I am sure Assad is running scared. You’re such a putz. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/150 "2014-08-11T17:31:01Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > So you actually haven’t read what I’ve written on children? > > With regards to the Soviet Union. Any idea how that came about? An armed rebellion perchance? > > There are few innocents, usually there are just differing grades of responsibility. Some people deserve a good hanging while others an eye roll and a head shake. I don’t know why this is such a difficult concept. > > If I had said that all the Palestinians equal Hamas, then I would have no problem with them being wiped out. Notice I didn’t say that, did I? Notice I said I didn’t advocate that? Guess not. I did see where you exempted children, but the rest of your points aren’t consistent with that statement. If we treat the population as a whole as responsible then we’ve almost defined the baby in the bathwater metaphor. So a peasant with no weapons, deathly afraid of the State apparatus, is responsible for Stalin because he doesn’t take up rocks against him? The Soviet Union was the result of a civil war, but I suspect that the Tsar’s secret police were not nearly as effective at infiltrating and terrorizing the population as the Soviet’s- my point remains that armed rebellion isn’t ALWAYS an option. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. Finally, What? First you said that the whole of a population is responsible for its government, then you’re saying that all Palestinians aren’t Hamas. If they are all responsible for Hamas, and therefore for the rockets, then they should all be fair game for the IDF, right? How can you have it both ways? (I don’t really think that you have a desire to see all the Palestinians killed, but I do think your logic fails; that’s what I was trying to illustrate) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/151 "2014-08-11T17:38:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Take someone who, confronted with the Iraq War, wrote letters to politicians to oppose the war, voted for the candidates likeliest to oppose it, marched against it, committed civil disobedience in protest of the war, talked about it to anyone who would listen. Lets say that the Iraqis were capable of striking back at the US during the war. Do you think they’d care that you were protesting the war when they flew overhead and bombed you? Of course not. If you knew that the consequences of your country going to war was that someone would fly overhead and drop bombs on you, would you have done anything more than what you did? Regardless, you have a chance to vote anonymously. There is no way to differentiate a ‘responsible’ citizen from one who isn’t. The responsibility is shared. It has to be. > [@](#): > > The people who are responsible for those drone strikes are the people who have made choices that facilitate those drone strikes. They are primarily responsible because they initiate the action. You just support their actions. Maybe you don’t agree with what they do, but you still pay taxes that pay for the bombs that pay for their salaries, etc. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/152 "2014-08-11T17:39:58Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Yes, but their reasoning is wrong. Other countries aren’t their enemies, modern civilization is. That they fight it because of their belief in ancient fables makes them primarily responsible for their actions and the consequences that result from them. Your reasoning is no less flawed. And don’t change the subject. We’re not talking about motives here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/153 "2014-08-11T17:42:36Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Lets say that the Iraqis were capable of striking back at the US during the war. Do you think they’d care that you were protesting the war when they flew overhead and bombed you? Of course not. I don’t generally turn to those who massacre civilians for guidance on ethical questions, though, so I’m not sure how these hypothetical Iraqis pertain to what I asked you. > [@](#): > > If you knew that the consequences of your country going to war was that someone would fly overhead and drop bombs on you, would you have done anything more than what you did? Not that that’s a fair question, but what more would you recommend? > [@](#): > > Regardless, you have a chance to vote anonymously. There is no way to differentiate a ‘responsible’ citizen from one who isn’t. The responsibility is shared. It has to be. No, it doesn’t have to be. There’s one easy way to differentiate: if someone isn’t obviously involved in making the evil decision, **give them the benefit of the doubt** , assume they’re innocent until, y’know, proven guilty. I certainly don’t say everyone is innocent, but a big fat chunk of people are. > [@](#): > > They are primarily responsible because they initiate the action. You just support their actions. Maybe you don’t agree with what they do, but you still pay taxes that pay for the bombs that pay for their salaries, etc. So let’s assume I’m a Quaker war resistor who doesn’t pay taxes, what then? Still share responsibility? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/154 "2014-08-11T17:44:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Yes, three: > > You’re such a putz. To be fair, I did start with one, thinking one would be sufficient to illustrate the point, but then remembered that it was Terr I was talking to, so went back and edited two more in; he may not have bothered to look back at the post after I said I’d posted three. Regardless, he’s an idiot, because the Google results page I grabbed that from had literally thousands more just like it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/155 "2014-08-11T18:49:54Z")
…and a putz because nobody stated that negative press would frighten and shame Assad into altering his position and actions. Why even make that comment in this context? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/156 "2014-08-11T18:55:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > …and a putz because nobody stated that negative press would frighten and shame Assad into altering his position and actions. Why even make that comment in this context? True, maybe someone should have pointed out to him that Israel gets protested more than Syria precisely because we think so much better of the leaders of Israel; we think there’s a chance they might alter their positions and actions. Oh, wait. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/157 "2014-08-11T19:41:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > True, maybe someone should have pointed out to him that Israel gets protested more than Syria precisely because we think so much better of the leaders of Israel; I know. Those screaming “Death to Jews” and “Slit Jews’ Throats” in those protests have such high opinions of the leaders of Israel… ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/158 "2014-08-11T19:53:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > True, maybe someone should have pointed out to him that Israel gets protested more than Syria precisely because we think so much better of the leaders of Israel; we think there’s a chance they might alter their positions and actions. > > Oh, wait. I don’t think “Israel is HIter; that’s not anti-semitic!” accomplishes what those who liberally bandy it about think it does. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/159 "2014-08-11T19:54:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I know. Those screaming “Death to Jews” and “Slit Jews’ Throats” in those protests have such high opinions of the leaders of Israel… Who here is defending those fucking assholes that you have to point that out Captain Obvious? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094/160 "2014-08-11T20:22:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I know. Those screaming “Death to Jews” and “Slit Jews’ Throats” in those protests have such high opinions of the leaders of Israel… I know you like those quotations, but they seem to be based on an anecdote from “David” (no other name given) who claims to have heard it in Paris during a violent and destructive, but relatively small, riot by “Muslim youths”. They’re clearly not even remotely representative of most of those protesting against Israel’s actions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-000-palestinians-are-starving-will-europe-explode-in-protest/695094.md?page=9)